Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board - Reply to Topic
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine> roller rockers
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Thread: roller rockers Reply to Thread
Title:
  
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
01-27-2013 02:50 PM
helrazr3 i read through those tips, the funny thing is that all of these things involve cam shaft break in but in my motor the top end was fine there was a small amount of wear on 2 lifters and both of those had sludge stuck in the pushrod. all my problems came from the bottom end my main bearings were wiped out most of the material that wasnt sucked into the oil pump was stuck to the crank.
01-27-2013 01:13 PM
helrazr3 thanks mr p-body to begin with i was falsely under the impression that you didnt have to adjust roller rockers and that you just installed them bolted them down and you were good to go. i figured that would be one variable i could eliminate. i now i know thats not true so all things being equal i think at this point im going to go with the suggested cam and keep it all stock with the exception of the suggested valve springs retainers and locks.

cost is a big factor for me but that being said im not going to skimp on something vital if it is a must have. its a nice thing to be able to upgrade everything just to be on the safe side. but as long as the stock parts are within there specs i will leave them be. thats if im reading all of this right lol


oops tech inspector snuck in there and posted this before i read it i will read it thank you.
01-27-2013 01:11 PM
techinspector1
Quote:
Originally Posted by helrazr3 View Post
at times i don't know how i can hate something i love doing so much.
This could have been written for me as well It's very frustrating sometimes, this hobby/sport of ours.

Roller cams are expensive compared to flat tappet combinations, but currently everything in the real world is geared toward rollers. Before you make a final decision to use a flat tappet camshaft, please read through this tutorial several times.....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks
01-27-2013 11:59 AM
Mr. P-Body We've been using the Comp Magnum rockers forever. No issues. I HAVE studied failures from other builders. The "bluing" of the rocker body may or may not be an indication of a problem. When the rocker ball shows some galling (material migration), it's a problem. The correction is the proper length pushrod. It's not the rocker's "fault". If the pushrod cup isn't in the right position, the oil hole is "too open", squirting the oil instead of weeping it. The result is indequate oil to the balls. The use of oil deflectors has also proven effective.

The two major benefits of using a roller-tipped rocker are the accuracy of each rocker, one to the next (already mentioned) and the significant reduction is "side-loading" of the valve stem against the guide. The wheel allows the force to "move" along with the tip.

Harland Sharpe colaborated with Smokey Yunik to develope the first truly successful "full roller" rocker for the 1960 Pontiac NASCAR program (Ed Cole traded with Mac McKellar for some goodies from the small block for the ball-fulcrum rockers in '54 when the engines were being developed. He improved them by oiling through the pushrod, which Pontiac didn't adopt until '61). For many years, Harland Sharpe were the "old standby" and more affordable than the "better" roller rockers. In recent years, Scorpion has actually suplanted HS as the "good, affordable" rocker. The Scorpion offers much less "deflection" during operation. A typical HS rocker will measure a higher ratio than advertised when "light" springs are used. At running speeds, they "deflect" enough to reduce the ratio to the advertised level. Either are an excellent choice for a street engine, although it is said the alloy used by HS will be more apt to "work harden". They can become brittle over time, but I have never seen any "hard evidence" of this.

It must be noted, though, the Comp and Crower steel roller rockers are far superior for street use. Far more expensive, too...

The XE268H is the grind listed. It's not radical enough to really warrant true rollers. Magnums would provde the desired results. Be CERTAIN you use the springs called for by Comp and follow THEIR break-in procedure. You'll like the cam...

Jim
01-27-2013 10:48 AM
helrazr3 thanks i was just looking on summit to try and figure out some prices if im correct that cam is not a roller. it looks to me like the roller cam and lifter sets are about 700+ if that's right i'm going to have to re think this whole thing i definitely wasn't prepared for a jump like that in price. i will go with that profile but i may scrap the whole roller thing.

at times i don't know how i can hate something i love doing so much.
01-27-2013 10:12 AM
MouseFink That cam profile is in the 260 - 300 lb. valve spring range. A set of Comp Cams 981-16 single valve springs will be the ones to use. They will drop in without any machine work and set up at 105 lb. seat pressure at 1.700" and 283 lb. open pressure at .480" valve lift. Use Comp Cams 742-16 retainers and Comp Cams 601-16 locks.

With those valve springs, full roller rocker arms are not necessary.
01-27-2013 08:32 AM
helrazr3 this is what the comp tech guy recommends for me

12-242-2. Duration @ .050 224/230 Lift is .477/.480 with a 110 LSA.. This will give you some sound at idle as well..

so this should mean im in the 301 to 350 area so if this means the stock springs top out at 300 i should replace them.......i think this is getting more expensive than i wanted it too but oh well what can you do
01-26-2013 03:20 PM
MouseFink
Quote:
Originally Posted by helrazr3 View Post
ok so do i need to change the valve springs too? its not a big race engine with crazy stuff i started this idea because i know roller is an upgrade from stock and i can eliminate the stock rocker arm adjustment from the equation
Here is a quick guideline in valve train parts selection:

SB Chevrolet hydraulic Roller Camshaft valve spring pressure
VALVE SPRING OPEN PRESSURE
Min. - Max. - Valve lift -
260 lb. - 300 lb. - .450" - .480" Daily driver - stock rocker arms
301 lb. - 350 lb. - .481" - .500" HP daily driver - full roller rocker arms
351 lb. - 400 lb. - .501" - .550" Racing - full roller rocker arms - 7/16" rocker studs

400 lb. - Up - .551" - up Racing - solid roller, steel billet camshaft, T&D shaft rocker system
and frequent parts inspection and replacement.
01-25-2013 07:29 PM
helrazr3 i guess that's why i come here and ask lots of questions lol
01-25-2013 07:09 PM
oldbogie
Quote:
Originally Posted by helrazr3 View Post
ok so do i need to change the valve springs too? its not a big race engine with crazy stuff i started this idea because i know roller is an upgrade from stock and i can eliminate the stock rocker arm adjustment from the equation
Actually no you can't eliminate the rocker arm adjustment from the equation, rollers are adjusted just like the sliding shoe by using the rocker nut to set the lash of a solid or travel of a hydraulic. The one thing that tends to be easier is seeing where the contact point is between the rocker's roller and the stem as knowing this is essential to picking the best length push rod.

Push rod length and its effect on where the roller (or sliding shoe for that matter) establishes two things:

- The off center forces introduced into the valve stem that cause it want to bind in the guide, this is a wear issue for guide and stem and an oil seal issue for the stem seal. You see the result of this in the guide wear being an egged shape in the direction of the rocker rather than uniform wear around the guide bore.

- The other is dynamic rocker ratio; the stated rocker ratio is a static dimension from the center of rotation to the push rod cup on one side and the tip contact point on the other. Production parts tend to be a bit sloppy here. However, in addition to that problem is the fact that the push rod end and the valve stem end actually make different motions of rotation so the dynamic ratio of the rocker is always changing a little from the static dimension calculation. So using a push rod length that keeps the movement of the tip across the stem to a minimum, also keeps the ratio more constant to the advertised. God, I'm beginning to sound like Jim Miller!

Bogie
01-25-2013 05:59 PM
helrazr3 ok so do i need to change the valve springs too? its not a big race engine with crazy stuff i started this idea because i know roller is an upgrade from stock and i can eliminate the stock rocker arm adjustment from the equation
01-25-2013 04:00 PM
Richiehd Mousefink, I agree 100%

Mertz, I dont think you can do a proper geometry check with the stock rockers, besides their ratio is all over the chart. Check those rocker for blueing from heat. I had very low hours on these rockers. Watch here:

01-25-2013 07:00 AM
MouseFink Aftermarket performance flat tappet and roller camshafts usually have higher valve lift and require a higher than stock spring rate in order to control valve action. Stock rocker arms with ball fulcrums are not designed to be used with more than 300 lb. valve spring pressure. Grooved rocker balls will give you an additional 30 lb. open load but open valve spring pressure more than 330 lb. should always be used with full roller rocker arms. When using high lift camshafts, full roller rocker arms will reduce oil temperature, diminish side load on the valve stems which reduces wear on the valve guides. Tight valve guide clearances and the use of self lubricating phosphor-bronze valve guide liners will allow more accurate valve seating.

This is why full roller rocker arms should be used with high performance flat tappet or roller camshafts. GM came to the same conclusion in 2000 when they introduced pedestal mounted, roller fulcrum rocker arms and the factory ball fulcrum rocker arms went the way of the Do-Do bird.
01-24-2013 10:14 PM
helrazr3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richiehd View Post
Just so you know, roller cam is different than roller rockers.
yes i do but i figured it all goes hand in hand if im going with a roller cam and lifters you would just do the rockers to.
01-24-2013 09:17 AM
Mertz I used them on my 350 and will be installing them on my 283 bacause I was told they are more accurate in ratio. I tried setting up the geometry on my 283 with the stock stamped rockers and I could not get them to leave a mark so I could not tell if they are centered on the valve. When I put them on the 350 it was clear where the rocker was riding on the valve. I know roller fulcrum rockers would have been better but I am on a budget and still wanted the geometry to be correct. The balls do have grooves for better oiling and less surface area so there is some reduced friction.
This thread has more than 15 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.