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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-17-2013 11:25 AM
69 widetrack either it's my computer or this site but for some reason it posted twice????
02-17-2013 11:20 AM
69 widetrack Old Fool...You nailed it...As I have mentioned many times on this forum there are true painters and there are applicators....anybody can apply paint, it's how it looks and lasts that makes the difference between the two. For the OP and I'm not trying to offend you, Single Stage paint was not designed to be clear coated...I don't care what is said about this, the fact is when it's sprayed and sprayed properly it's designed to be shiny. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be called single stage...I think they might give it a name like "base coat, clear coat". If it was designed to be clear coated why would it have a shine after you put it on your vehicle before you put the clear on.

The top surfaces are cracking in my opinion because the Single Stage was applied to heavy on the top surfaces and the more product you put on the longer it takes for the catalyst (hardner) to completely react with the paint (You can catalyze a gallon of paint and it may have a pot life of an hour or more, yet you spray the paint and it's sets up in minutes, not cures but sets up). I don't feel that it's a problem of trapped solvents as much as trapped catalyst. You have a catalyst for Single Stage...it may have a part number like LSH80 and your reduction is 4 to 1 for example, your clear coat has a hardner with a part number like DQ7500 with a reduction of 2 to 1...2 part numbers that don't resemble each other, 2 reduction ratios that in no way shape or form appear to be compatible. When the catalyst in the Single Stage hasn't had the time to react with the Single Stage paint and is top coated with a product with an entirely different catalyst who knows how long the product will last? I'm not a chemist and unless a person applying the paint is a chemist it's good advice to stick the tech sheets.

As I mentioned, I don't want to offend the OP, in the future if you paint a vehicle and you want to clear it use base coat clear coat. Your chances of having a problem like this occur will be minimized. If you did it this way because base coat cost to much....well, it took over a year to find your answer why base coat costs more.

By the way...I do seriously appreciate that you want to learn and I'm sorry that you had to learn the hard way...We all have had things happen like this....sometimes I think this trade is more of an art than a trade.

Ray
02-17-2013 11:11 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fool View Post
Brian, you are so correct about this topic.

I have never been through any type body and fender training so I can't comment on it specifically but my experience elsewhere applies just the same.

I worked in the trades all my adult life.
30 Years in an aluminium rolling mill as a millwright, a welder, and a pipefitter, then the following 10 years since in the construction trades as a pipe fitter.

What I have observed over the last 40 years are there are 2 basic types of journeyman.

The first is the person who went through all the training, learned the theory about and how to do things they were trained in class or on the job.

The second type is the person who had the same training or not, learned a lot about it on the job , and has a natural aptitude to do the craft.

I call the second type a natural,although they could be a hack or an artist about their work. They have the "knack" .

People admire an artist that can draw a beautiful picture, me included. They say that person just has the natural ability.

People admire the Olympic athlete and their ability to perform at the highest level of their event.
Again it is mentioned they are just a natural.

The same thing applies to the trades, some can just grasp it in their head, almost be able to see through a steel case and diagnose a gear box or such, or take a set of blue prints and see the built structure before ground is broke, or equipment is assembled.

While experience does play a part, the natural ability will always elevate the Craftsman.

Another observation I have made is a person that excels in their field is almost always anal .

Thanks for reading my rambling thoughts
Yep, it's like my 15 year old son who just picked up one of my guitars about two weeks ago and started playing it. He plays melodies all over the neck, he plays melodies to a song he doesn't even remember the name of, and we have to go to youtube to figure it out. But here he is playing the melody. The other night in minutes, he grabbed a plastic piece of crap Ukulele we brought back from Hawaii with one broken string and he tuned the strings to what ever he wanted and was playing a Metallica solo on it! He is a "natural", where as I simply beat chords on the guitar, he is a natural guitarist musician.

I watch a shop full of guys at work and the differences between them are amazing. One was an apprentice when he came to the shop having been in the business for only a couple of years, just about everything he did as far as real collision work, replacing body panels and frame rails and stuff like that, he did for the first time after he came here. He is amazing, he beats the rest of the shop in efficiency by a TON. He blows everyone away including me when I was on the line. He hardly ever breaks anything, he hardly ever has a come back, he is simply amazing. Then there is another guy who has been doing this for many years, almost 20 at this shop alone. He is the slowest in the shop and breaks things every single day, can't take off the most simple moulding without breaking it. I can see him working from my desk and have watched him do the damnedest stuff. The other day he was taking off a bed moulding off the top of bed side of a Ford truck using a long clip tool simply prying it off, pry POP, pry POP, breaking most every one of the retainers and worse yet bending the panel up where the retainers hold the edge of a square hole, bending it up a quarter inch, no kidding! Then denting it an inch from the hole with the bottom of the clip tool. I walked over and said "why don't you use a long needle nose plier? He said he didn't have one! He has $10K in tool boxes, no kidding, one was $8500 and recently he bought a roll around cart like box for $950 yet he doesn't have a long needle nose plier in one of those boxes? I went and grabbed one from my box and removed the rest of the moulding very easily with zero damage to the moulding or bed side. He has ZERO passion,just does it every day fighting thru everything he does. It is fascinating really, he is working much harder at the job because he has put no effort into learning, thus he puts much more effort into "just doing it".

There is another guy who's father taught him the trade and he will make ANYTHING straight. When it goes over to the paint shop, it is DONE. Often the other guys will go back and forth between the paint and bodyshop correcting things.

It is so interesting seeing the differences out in front of you like a movie, yep, passion can make up for a lot. So even if you aren't a "Natural" you can force yourself to be passionate about the subject and get much better. But without the passion, the guy who isn't a natural is going no where baby.

Brian
02-17-2013 10:48 AM
Old Fool
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Henry, common sense can't be taught. And you can go thru an ICAR class and be handed the answers at the end, I don't know about you but the classes I have been to do basically that, tell you the answers to the test. Not only that, but if you have no passion in the subject you are simply not going to absorb the information. God knows I have been to a few ICAR classes that I couldn't tell you a darn thing I learned, it was a subject that bored me.

This guy, I don't know what to think about him, he has no passion what so ever in the science of paint. If you have no passion you can go to a hundred classes, you are going to walk away with nothing. Where you and I would test things and see where the boundaries are and so forth, he could care less, it's just a job.

Brian
Brian, you are so correct about this topic.

I have never been through any type body and fender training so I can't comment on it specifically but my experience elsewhere applies just the same.

I worked in the trades all my adult life.
30 Years in an aluminium rolling mill as a millwright, a welder, and a pipefitter, then the following 10 years since in the construction trades as a pipe fitter.

What I have observed over the last 40 years are there are 2 basic types of journeyman.

The first is the person who went through all the training, learned the theory about and how to do things they were trained in class or on the job.

The second type is the person who had the same training or not, learned a lot about it on the job , and has a natural aptitude to do the craft.

I call the second type a natural,although they could be a hack or an artist about their work. They have the "knack" .

People admire an artist that can draw a beautiful picture, me included. They say that person just has the natural ability.

People admire the Olympic athlete and their ability to perform at the highest level of their event.
Again it is mentioned they are just a natural.

The same thing applies to the trades, some can just grasp it in their head, almost be able to see through a steel case and diagnose a gear box or such, or take a set of blue prints and see the built structure before ground is broke, or equipment is assembled.

While experience does play a part, the natural ability will always elevate the Craftsman.

Another observation I have made is a person that excels in their field is almost always anal .

Thanks for reading my rambling thoughts
02-16-2013 10:38 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
for painting it's always better to know all the dos and don'ts before you even spray a gun. With bodywork it's get a fender, put a dent it, and heck, you could even somewhat fix the dent with two nice sized rocks if you had to saying unga bunga. For painting you have to read up on lots of details before even picking up a gun or you will be throwing away money. So I'm surprised you guys even had a painter that can't recognize that you spray a spray out card the same as you would the vehicle. This is all mentioned in I-Car and common sense. If he's I CAR platinum as I am at refinishing then he should know this. Is he I car platinum? The new role certified?
Henry, common sense can't be taught. And you can go thru an ICAR class and be handed the answers at the end, I don't know about you but the classes I have been to do basically that, tell you the answers to the test. Not only that, but if you have no passion in the subject you are simply not going to absorb the information. God knows I have been to a few ICAR classes that I couldn't tell you a darn thing I learned, it was a subject that bored me.

This guy, I don't know what to think about him, he has no passion what so ever in the science of paint. If you have no passion you can go to a hundred classes, you are going to walk away with nothing. Where you and I would test things and see where the boundaries are and so forth, he could care less, it's just a job.

Brian
02-16-2013 09:53 PM
tech69 for painting it's always better to know all the dos and don'ts before you even spray a gun. With bodywork it's get a fender, put a dent it, and heck, you could even somewhat fix the dent with two nice sized rocks if you had to saying unga bunga. For painting you have to read up on lots of details before even picking up a gun or you will be throwing away money. So I'm surprised you guys even had a painter that can't recognize that you spray a spray out card the same as you would the vehicle. This is all mentioned in I-Car and common sense. If he's I CAR platinum as I am at refinishing then he should know this. Is he I car platinum? The new role certified?
02-16-2013 06:55 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Your absolutely right Brian...it's so hard to tell and that's why I was wondering if the cracking was anywhere else. In many cases like this, if the person who painted it saw what was happening and he was honest, the paint problem would be solved immediately. If it's only the hood that's cracking (not the sides, not the cowl not the tops of the fenders or any adjacent panel) the painter screwed up. How about this...the truck got painted, everything looked good except the hood, maybe to much dirt, a big bug right in the middle of the hood, whatever. The truck had to go and they had to put everything back together so take the hood off, re-shoot it while the other guys reassemble the truck....the painter pounds the paint on, throws the hood on the truck and see ya later. I've seen that happen more than once in a body shop (not the cracking paint part so much but taking a hood off to repaint it while the rest of the truck is getting the bumpers headlights grill etc. put back on it so it can leave a 5 o'clock)
Oh heck yes I have a ton of examples. But lately I had a pretty funny one. Our old head painter at work (he stepped down and rightly so) would match a color and then paint the car and the color wouldn't match, even though it did on his spray out card. I showed him, I explained to him that this was PROOF that he was spraying it different, the application was some how different and he just never got it, just never could understand that the color isn't going to change unless YOU spray it different, being drier, wetter, less coats, SOMETHING is different about how you are spraying it if the spray out car is different than the fender you paint with the same paint in the gun for crying out loud! But he just never could grasp it. It was easier for him to blame the paint.

Brian
02-16-2013 06:49 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coaner View Post
I painted the truck, first time painting a vehicle it wasn't perfect but i was pleased with the outcome and was glad with what i learned. The hood was painted on the truck, i took a closer look and it does appear to be on the horizontal surfaces more than the vertical portions of the hood so it makes sense that maybe those shifted causing the clear to crack. My other question is why a year after did it do it? Sorry for the questions but the more I learn the better I will get at it.
Realistically it simply took that long because it wasn't out much in the sun? Because the clear simply lasted that long before it "gave up". This is one of the reasons why I love it when a guy says "I do it and it works", that is fine but do you see it years after you have done it? That is often a whole different story.

Brian
02-16-2013 04:55 PM
Coaner I painted the truck, first time painting a vehicle it wasn't perfect but i was pleased with the outcome and was glad with what i learned. The hood was painted on the truck, i took a closer look and it does appear to be on the horizontal surfaces more than the vertical portions of the hood so it makes sense that maybe those shifted causing the clear to crack. My other question is why a year after did it do it? Sorry for the questions but the more I learn the better I will get at it.
02-16-2013 02:47 PM
69 widetrack Your absolutely right Brian...it's so hard to tell and that's why I was wondering if the cracking was anywhere else. In many cases like this, if the person who painted it saw what was happening and he was honest, the paint problem would be solved immediately. If it's only the hood that's cracking (not the sides, not the cowl not the tops of the fenders or any adjacent panel) the painter screwed up. How about this...the truck got painted, everything looked good except the hood, maybe to much dirt, a big bug right in the middle of the hood, whatever. The truck had to go and they had to put everything back together so take the hood off, re-shoot it while the other guys reassemble the truck....the painter pounds the paint on, throws the hood on the truck and see ya later. I've seen that happen more than once in a body shop (not the cracking paint part so much but taking a hood off to repaint it while the rest of the truck is getting the bumpers headlights grill etc. put back on it so it can leave a 5 o'clock)
02-16-2013 02:27 PM
MARTINSR Often WAY more material is applied to the horizontal surfaces, so the question is, was it painted off the truck, or if it was on, does the cowl at the edge of the hood have the same cracking? If the cracking were to go to the edge of the hood yet the cowl isn't cracking and the hood was painted on, then it HAS TO BE something under the paint on the hood. Figuring out what happened is very hard with out getting all the information. Was the hood painted off the truck but hanging from hooks vertically? When you walk into a shop as a rep looking at a problem you literally are a cop looking at a crime scene and you ask many questions and look at what is in front of you. With just a few words on a forum is pretty tough.

Brian
02-16-2013 02:21 PM
69 widetrack I can appreciate what your saying Brian but, that's why I asked if it was cracking anywhere else...like the roof. Sides, if what your suggesting is the cause, I can see them not cracking because you can't put paint material on as heavy on the sides as you can on a hood, roof or deck lid, (no deck lid in this case because it's a truck). So if the problem was a soft substrate underneath the clear the roof should be cracked as well. If it's only the hood...I'd like to know if the hood was painted off the truck. I've seen painters when they paint a hood off the vehicle just pound the material on...then I could accept the rational.
02-16-2013 01:22 PM
MARTINSR The reason for "cracking" in most any finish is the upper film gets hard faster than what's under it, plain and simple in my experience that is what could cause "cracking". The film under the clear has "moved" do to it being uncured and soft, just like the ground moving under concrete, the concrete cracks.
Die back of course as Ray mentioned is most common with this but "cracking" is VERY uncommon these days with Urethanes. So I am just going back to the old standard that when something is hard laying over something that is not, the hard cracks.

Brian
02-16-2013 12:01 PM
Coaner I will try to post some pictures later im going to work on the truck. The cracking looks like somebody broke a hard boiled egg shell and is mainly on the hood all over it evenly. I didnt need to do any body work on the hood other than repair a few small dents. I painted the truck in July it was about 90+ plus that week using a slow reducer and waited longer to clear because i was told to when using the SS.
02-16-2013 11:08 AM
MARTINSR Yep, sometimes it's a matter of semantics.


Brian
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