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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-12-2013 09:07 PM
69 widetrack I think we are on the same page Kevin...I guess I wrote it wrong and after rereading what I wrote, I can see why you might think that. What I was trying to say was that you have had some people that have treated you in a condescending manor (the guy in Edmonton) and that none of the people that gave you advice here where trying to do that to you.

I hope this clears things up.

Best regards

Ray
04-12-2013 09:01 PM
Kevin316
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Kevin, as much as people here are trying to help you, sometimes the advice we give you comes from the comments that you made. We have no idea about how qualified you are or aren't. Your thread is titled "New to Body work..". To me that would mean that you do not have a lot of experience, you went on to say that if it wasn't done properly, you'd obsess over it. Not knowing you personally and all that anyone that did give advice had to go on was what they read. We can give you a lot of advice, but without experience and knowing exactly what to look for while your working on your 6 foot box sides chances are it's not going to be as straight as you would like, guide coat or no guide coat. No one here was holding there nose high in the air and being condescending, all they where doing was giving you the facts. They only had your best interest at heart and wanted you to have the results that you where hoping to achieve.


Ray
If that's what you got from my post I apologize. I was commenting on the experiance I had with the shop in Edmonton. I haven't been on here long enough to have any opinion on anyone, other than good.
04-10-2013 10:43 PM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr4speed View Post
I have dealt with quite a few guys over the years that were very mechanically inclined with rebuilding motors, trannys rear ends and could even do a lot of the metal fabricating and welding. But when it came to getting the "bodywork" done they just could not get the hang of it, and most would say is by far the hardest part of the restoration. So I would strongly disagree with the comments made as to anyone can do body work, it just is not true. And like I just mentioned these are guys that can do just about any other type of work or repair on a car. And as far as getting "straight" panels with a 2X4, all I can say is I have made all my own blocks out of hard plastic lexan and if they go out even just slightly you are not getting that panel straight until that tool is trued up again.
You are so right. I have been fortunate enough to be able to get my ticket or license in both Auto Body and Mechanics. Getting metal straight is the hardest part of a restoration...building engines, transmissions and many other things on the mechanical side of a restoration take knowledge, patience and attention to detail...with working metal, it's different virtually every time...metal moves someplace else when you move it to get it straight when it's been hit...that is one of the parts that is difficult, especially when working on large flat panels like box sides. I have all the respect in the world for Technicians on the mechanical side of this trade and the main reason I joined this site was to learn from those knowledgeable Technicians and this site hasn't let me down. I have learned a lot and hope that I have given back with the knowledge that I've gained over the years.

My long board as I mentioned is home made...it cost me about $15...twenty years ago...you don't need expensive tools to get a straight panel...you need straight tools to get a panel straight. If I feel that my long board isn't straight (and I do hold a straight edge on my board fairly regularly) I machine it to make sure it is straight.

Thanks Dennis, I appreciate your comments.

Ray
04-10-2013 09:25 PM
mr4speed I have dealt with quite a few guys over the years that were very mechanically inclined with rebuilding motors, trannys rear ends and could even do a lot of the metal fabricating and welding. But when it came to getting the "bodywork" done they just could not get the hang of it, and most would say is by far the hardest part of the restoration. So I would strongly disagree with the comments made as to anyone can do body work, it just is not true. And like I just mentioned these are guys that can do just about any other type of work or repair on a car. And as far as getting "straight" panels with a 2X4, all I can say is I have made all my own blocks out of hard plastic lexan and if they go out even just slightly you are not getting that panel straight until that tool is trued up again.
04-10-2013 08:05 PM
69 widetrack I feel that unless you have read each and every one of my post, which I have taken the time to do of yours, you do not have any right to say that I don't offer solutions. I take pride in the solutions that I have offered on this forum. These Forums are to help one another and exchange information, personally I don't care if you worked for 2 restoration and body shops before you where 25 what has that got to do with anything except by your own admission tell me that the people you worked with didn't teach you very much. That would explain why you put body filler over holes in a door that you pulled a dent on. You did a Camaro that won an award, paint can cover a number of sins.

I feel that if there is going to be a viable exchange of information, the information exchanged should be correct information. The experience that people get should be done by receiving correct information, handing a 2 X 4 to someone along with some metal working tools, sand paper and a can of bondo is hardly giving someone good information. All you offered the OP was what happened to you and do you really feel that this is good information? Is this the best information you have? I reread your post, you offered nothing but empty encouragement. As important as encouragement is, it should come along with answers to questions....what question did you answer compared to some of the other members, nothing, but and I quote " any body can do body work" you mention it again in your last post...not everyone can do body work unless doing it wrong and wavy to you is considered body work? You go on to say "Looking at the pictures, the cheapest way to do this is to fix it yourself. You will need to take it down to bare metal and give a skim coat of filler over most of the body panels and then block sand until it is straight. Anything you can feel with your hand will be seen by the naked eye when paint is applied. Nothing too difficult to accomplish here". You didn't offer one tip, not one solution to removing any dent let alone straightening an entire quarter panel when in your previous paragraph on that post you said "Anything up to an 1/8" of filler is an acceptable repair." Where is your good information except mud over the dents, just like a door with holes left in it from pulling a dent, just mud over it and it was the people on this forum that shamed you into welding them up.

You contradict yourself over and over, here's one in the same sentence, "Getting sheet metal straight ain't that hard. Doing it the "right way" takes allot of time and will be hard for a newbie though." What does that mean??? Please explain, is it hard or isn't it? The OP has admitted himself that he is new at this by reading the title of his thread "New to Body work". I'll quote some more of your encouraging phrases, this time from your previous post " As far as spending thousands only to be disappointed I don't think a couple quarts of body filler and some sandpaper are gonna ring up that kind of tab before he knows if this is for him or not. We are talking about knocking out some dents and using some body filler, not rocket science here, anyone with a little positive encouragement can do this." You, "the man", who worked in 2 restoration and body shops before you where 25 years old. Think...the OP takes your advice, buys a can or 2 of body filler (by the way you mentioned 2 quarts, I would challenge anyone to repair to box sides with dents and use 1 quart per side), fills the box side with mud, takes it to a shop, maybe because he feels it's ready for paint , maybe he's not happy with the way it turned out? Don't know, but rest assured, that box side is going to end up in a body shop and unless it's a shop that doesn't care about their reputation they aren't going to do it unless that box side is reasonably straight. No one ever says "look at that average paint job", they always say "look at that really good one" or "look at that really bad one" and the general public rarely looks at a car and says "Wow is that body work ever good on that car". That's why I, as a painter, would not want to paint a vehicle that isn't straight, I respect myself to much. If those box sides aren't reasonably straight, the OP, Kevin, may find himself in a situation where he may need to pay a body shop to get them straight and again, you must know that most often it cost more to redo something than to do it right the first time. That 2 quarts of body filler and sand paper with the step by step tutelage that you have given Kevin could end up costing him well over your estimated thousands. I've seen it when I worked in body shops, I saw it when I worked as a paint rep...it happens all the time. A greater number of people, with guidance can get body filler straight than can get metal straight, getting filler straight is one of the smallest parts of doing body work, getting metal straight is the difficult part and that's the difference between a body man and someone that fills in sins with filler, there is a big difference.

Your final comment says it all, I probably didn't even need to post. Kevin, this is what this man thinks about you and your truck "Let him do his own work if he wants it to look like crap? Really?" Is this the guy that you want to take advice from?

Kevin, Booth Boy offered you some very good advice by doing small sections or starting with smaller panels, getting box sides straight is hard, very often even for a pro. I'm all in favor of people getting in there and working on there vehicles, I encourage it and will help anywhere I can, but seriously, there is a lot more to it than getting a couple of cans of filler, some sand paper and metal working tools and that's all the advice, when you really read his post, "Goldduster 360" has given you.

Again, only with your best interest at heat Kevin.

Ray
04-10-2013 04:05 PM
Goldduster360
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I have to agree, I don't think anybody here was trying to intimidate the OP. When I first read this thread, several members had already posted and I felt I didn't have anything to add that would have made a difference and agreed with what was posted. I read what the Op said very carefully and because of what the OP said, I'm sure that this is what prompted the responses that he got. I respect the Op for stating how he felt about what he was doing, how he wanted things to be done right, the fact that he would obsess if what he had done so far, or what he may do in the future wouldn't be done correctly. Giving advice on how to do things is difficult, wording it so that whomever your trying to give advice to completely understands often is next to impossible, no matter how much command you may have of the English language, what you write and what the person reading what you wrote, may be translated in a completely different light.

Telling somebody how to do things is like school...showing people how to do things is more like real life and in my opinion goes a lot further in teaching. Sometimes trying to pass on knowledge can be frustrating, on the internet, anyone who has done this before for a living has the benefit of is, writing and posting pictures. The hands on of stopping someone when you see that they are making an error, to show them a better way or to just say, stop now or your going to over sand that panel can't be done in the environment that we have here. Very often, what some people may feel are "pro's" hear, is coming after the fact when the person asking how, has done it wrong, maybe it wasn't explained in the terms that the person asking could fully understand. Maybe the person asking how, thought he understood but didn't. When I hear someone who has started a thread say, "I ask these questions only because I will obsess over it unless I know it is Good", and the advice given, I'm sure was given with the best intentions for the OP and have reread every post, not one member in my mind crossed a line and tried to intimidate the OP.

What I'm more happy about is that not one post said, "this is easy, all you have to do is"...those are the posts that do more damage than people telling someone that they have a big job in front of them and give alternative suggestions. Those box sides would be tough, even for a seasoned "pro" and I know many seasoned pro's that either wouldn't touch them or if they did wouldn't get them straight...yet they have a piece of paper that says they are pro's. Every person that offered advice knew how tough those box sides are and reading your post, your the only one that has made it sound not nearly as difficult as it is.

Comments like "Anybody can learn body work" and "Getting sheet metal straight ain't that hard" or "Nothing too difficult to accomplish here". I had a few more but I'm sure that my point is made. You may feel that these quotes have been taken out of context but, how do you know how a person will interpret what you wrote. Everyone of the three quotes is wrong. Not just anybody can do or learn body work, I've met numerous good people that just can't do it, no matter how hard they tried. Getting large 6 foot surfaces of sheet metal straight is difficult, you need patience, you need passion, you need experience and know what you are doing.

My hats off to the professionals that took the time to give the OP their opinions and offer advice so that the job would turn out best for the person concerned. My hats also off to the OP, his comment about obsessing tells me that he does have the passion, I would hate for an individual such as this, who obviously cars about this vehicle go ahead, grab a 2 X 4, prep his truck and not be happy with the results. It may demoralize an individual to the point that they might never want to attempt anything like this again.

Only wishing the best for the OP.

Ray
With all due respect Ray you offer comments without solution. I think people forget what these web boards are all about: It's to help one another out, it's about the exchange of information. I learned how to do body work with very little instruction and worked for two body shops and a restoration firm before I turned 25. By the way a 2x4 works very well as that was my main tool for straightening the doors on my 79 Camaro which took best in class it's first outing at an AACA show. The car is straighter than new. Picture attached. I am not a pro, don't own a Jay Leno garage or have a Chip Foose budget but I got the job done.

In my opinion the spirit of a hotrodders forum such as this is to help people out and not discourage them. It's about the friendly exchange of information. How the hell is anybody supposed to get any experience if he is told he can't do it. Anybody can learn to do body work, not everybody has to have an arsenal of high end tools or a fancy garage to do it in either. Not everybody will be a perfectionist at it either. Some have the knack some don't. As far as spending thousands only to be disappointed I don't think a couple quarts of body filler and some sandpaper are gonna ring up that kind of tab before he knows if this is for him or not. We are talking about knocking out some dents and using some body filler, not rocket science here, anyone with a little positive encouragement can do this.

Based on the traditions hot rodding was founded on, you work with what you have, It breaks common sense why somebody would offer comments without solution and be down right discouraging such as tech69.

Let him do his own work if he wants it to look like crap? Really?

Come on guys..............
04-10-2013 10:02 AM
tech69 you can always epoxy first or use that new evercoat filler which is more dense.
04-10-2013 09:41 AM
rodgrdodger This is good topic because we need a similar type of product that does not expand under heat like bondo does. people just keep on using the same product. I'm sure the manufacturer does not mind selling us this crap that create's more work for us to do and is basically a half *** product. Sure, it sand's easier and faster but my point being is who really want's this water absorbing sponge CRAP!
04-10-2013 09:29 AM
rodgrdodger Ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
You need a little education in forums don't you. Hit the "quote" button in the lower right corner of the post you want to say something about. If you don't do that we have no idea what the heck you are talking about.

Brian
04-10-2013 09:27 AM
tech69 I like his approach of working it and handing it off. That's smart and says a lot about other things he may be doing on this resto. You also never know, maybe it looks good in wet primer and you decide to finish it off. In any case, if the major stuff is worked out this can be no more than a tech getting a 16" and doing a little more sanding and a skim coat. It can cut the work in half. The only time I would disagree with that is if the panel is hammered and you try to get it back in shape. I have thrown fits (all to myself) working other people's stuff but it's usually cause they're goal is to tuck the metal in by all means and mine is to ensure I'm getting the true shape back w/ proper flex. This bed doesn't look like one of those though where it's hammered to that point.
04-10-2013 09:25 AM
rodgrdodger I know. What a joke! But I only trust myself you know because you cannot trust anyone else!
Quote:
Originally Posted by boothboy View Post
I'm sure your head's spinning after all this excellent and well meaning advice. Mine would be. Why don't you spend a few bucks and get a gallon of bondo a long board a rattle can of flat black and try a section . If your happy with the results move over a couple of feet and work on that area. If everything looks like camel crap and your going nuts find that shop to finish the job. If the results are close to what you want keep on trucking!
You might find you like and have the aptitude for bodywork. You also might find out you flat out don't like bondo dust in your ears so turn it over to the pro's. If you do fine carpentry I'll bet you'll do ok.
You'll never until you try.

BB ( whose bodywork mostly looks like camel crap but's to cheap to turn it over to the pro's)
04-10-2013 09:14 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by boothboy View Post
I'm sure your head's spinning after all this excellent and well meaning advice. Mine would be. Why don't you spend a few bucks and get a gallon of bondo a long board a rattle can of flat black and try a section . If your happy with the results move over a couple of feet and work on that area. If everything looks like camel crap and your going nuts find that shop to finish the job. If the results are close to what you want keep on trucking!
You might find you like and have the aptitude for bodywork. You also might find out you flat out don't like bondo dust in your ears so turn it over to the pro's. If you do fine carpentry I'll bet you'll do ok.
You'll never until you try.

BB ( whose bodywork mostly looks like camel crap but's to cheap to turn it over to the pro's)
I think that's great advice, you'll know fairly quickly if this is for you or not. I think the mistake I made (and thank you BB) when it comes to giving advice in this regard is, try working on an area smaller than a box side...If you have a fender, a door...maybe the roof of the cab, anything that has a smaller area than a 6 foot box side. If you can work the metal and get that straight, move on to something bigger. WOW, that is common sense and I for one missed the boat on that one.

I was fixated on the question, not a solution, I learned something today and thank you again BB.

Ray
04-10-2013 09:02 AM
boothboy I'm sure your head's spinning after all this excellent and well meaning advice. Mine would be. Why don't you spend a few bucks and get a gallon of bondo a long board a rattle can of flat black and try a section . If your happy with the results move over a couple of feet and work on that area. If everything looks like camel crap and your going nuts find that shop to finish the job. If the results are close to what you want keep on trucking!
You might find you like and have the aptitude for bodywork. You also might find out you flat out don't like bondo dust in your ears so turn it over to the pro's. If you do fine carpentry I'll bet you'll do ok.
You'll never until you try.

BB ( whose bodywork mostly looks like camel crap but's to cheap to turn it over to the pro's)
04-10-2013 12:53 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin316 View Post
Thanks to everyone for their input. I consider myself very handy and I don't fail at much. I weld, do fine wood work, build engines (including the 650hp 521 for this truck) but this is making me stop and think.

I will be honest, a lot of the comments did make me doubt myself. Gold duster did make me think again that maybe I can get it done. Pulling the dents is easy, right? The picture show a fair representation of the panel, with wet primer on it you can get a good idea of what it looks like. It was close to the other side that I haven't touched yet so there is improvement there.

I understand to much heat is a bad thing, over pulling on the dents will stretch the metal, there is only so much metal there so don't remove to much..... and so on.

What I have decided to do is get as much done on it as I can and then take it to a resto shop and have them finish it. If I can save them 10 hrs work that's money in my pocket.

I have a thick skin so be honest. You don't do anyone a favor by telling them they are doing a good job when in reality they can't color within the lines.

The comment about pros with their nose in the air is a fair one but we all know they're not all like that. The first shop (guy) I spoke to about this truck was a dick in a well known shop in Edmonton. The first question he asked me was "why would I fix up this truck". Don't get me wrong, they do very nice work and turn out some nice cars but I will never deal with him again because of the attitude. If I wanted to fix up an AMC Gremlin he shouldn't ask why.
Kevin, as much as people here are trying to help you, sometimes the advice we give you comes from the comments that you made. We have no idea about how qualified you are or aren't. Your thread is titled "New to Body work..". To me that would mean that you do not have a lot of experience, you went on to say that if it wasn't done properly, you'd obsess over it. Not knowing you personally and all that anyone that did give advice had to go on was what they read. We can give you a lot of advice, but without experience and knowing exactly what to look for while your working on your 6 foot box sides chances are it's not going to be as straight as you would like, guide coat or no guide coat. No one here was holding there nose high in the air and being condescending, all they where doing was giving you the facts. They only had your best interest at heart and wanted you to have the results that you where hoping to achieve.

One of the things I detest is when people post and make comments about how easy it is, when that fact is that it can be difficult...even for a professional. Pulling dents, may or may not be easy, it depends on the dent, when you pull a dent your not just moving the metal where the dent is, your moving metal around the dent as well and on a 6 foot box side with a lot of dents, your moving a lot of metal. I did a quarter panel on a Cadillac a number of years ago, it wasn't nearly as bad as your box side. I had repaired tougher quarters than this one, but for some reason, it gave me a lot of grief. That type of thing can happen in this trade and in reading the posts, I don't feel that people where trying to discourage you, they where in my opinion being honest with you and coloring within the lines. By the way, 2 X 4 don't make a good block for large flat areas.

Yes, there are people and shops that have that mightier than thou attitude and I don't have much use for them. On that note, I'd be very interested in knowing which shop in Edmonton gave you attitude. When I was repping paint I repped in Edmonton for almost 10 years and know many of the shops there. You mentioned that you might be looking for a shop that would help you finish, perhaps, if you don't have one in mind, I might be able to help you out. If your interested, send me a PM and we can discuss it further. I do honestly respect your initiative for taking this project on and asking for advice.

When your working at getting stellar results in this trade, getting large areas of metal straight is anything but easy...as far as I'm concerned it's only easy if your satisfied by mediocre results. If it was that easy, the old saying comes into play, then anybody could do it.

So if your interested in my offer, let me know.

Best Regards

Ray
04-09-2013 11:43 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgrdodger View Post
Are you sure that is the right tool ? I can think of many other tools and methods. How about a guide coat and a simple block sander? AY! It does not take expensive tools to find high and low spot's!
You need a little education in forums don't you. Hit the "quote" button in the lower right corner of the post you want to say something about. If you don't do that we have no idea what the heck you are talking about.

Brian
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