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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-12-2013 07:43 PM
69 widetrack Yeah we haven't been able to by quality solvent for three years now as well, if we want a good base coat it's gotta be water born...and to be honest, I like it, It lays down flatter because it's thinner than solvent, colors are more sharp overall it's a decent product. As far as being better for the environment, I have my doubts.

I remember the first HVLP's, they were crap, we didn't have to use them but some shops bought them and they turned into primer guns real quick...I seem to remember one that had a 2 air lines going to it one for regular use and another one that would turn paddles in the pot to stir metallic's while you painted...I can't remember the name of it but it didn't sell well at all.

Ray
04-12-2013 07:26 PM
MARTINSR Ray, once all the dust died it ends up being fine, but damn that learning curve, holy crap did it kick our butts! The first HVLP guns only cow they were bad, there weren't any better than a Black and Decker airless from Home Depot! OH MY GOD that was a bad time for paint. We have been using water borne for....um..I think it's three years now. Some of the compliant stuff like acetone is a joke, it's HEAVY it doesn't pollute the air it pollutes our ground water!

Brian
04-12-2013 06:37 PM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
The changes started hitting here hard with the "clean air act" of 1993. The HVLP requirement came the next year as I remember, lacquer, gone, and a number of other products, gone. And it happened much faster than we thought, the first HVLP guns were CRAP! I cheated big time with my Devilbiss JGA502 hidden away like I was running a meth lab. A few years later they took the urethane primer, that really hit us hard, water borne was all they had and it was CRAP, CRAP, CRAP. Then the first 2K was Polyester, then the next urethane was reduced with acetone and people applied it like the old days pounding it on and it would NEVER cure. The learning curve was a steep one, very steep.


Brian
So Brian, are you guys using water born base coat or is solvent still Okay? As far as I'm concerned the new paint guns did and do more for the environment than mandating that everybody use VOC Compliant material. Let me rephrase that...the paint guns we have today have done more than mandating VOC Compliant material.

Ray
04-12-2013 06:07 PM
MARTINSR The changes started hitting here hard with the "clean air act" of 1993. The HVLP requirement came the next year as I remember, lacquer, gone, and a number of other products, gone. And it happened much faster than we thought, the first HVLP guns were CRAP! I cheated big time with my Devilbiss JGA502 hidden away like I was running a meth lab. A few years later they took the urethane primer, that really hit us hard, water borne was all they had and it was CRAP, CRAP, CRAP. Then the first 2K was Polyester, then the next urethane was reduced with acetone and people applied it like the old days pounding it on and it would NEVER cure. The learning curve was a steep one, very steep.


Brian
04-12-2013 05:53 PM
69 widetrack When your in a situation that allows you to slow down and learn, that it is the way to go, unfortunately in Canada we were mandated to use VOC compliant Envirobase (if you wanted to use PPG, I reread my last post and I wrote Aqua Base, my bad, Aqua Base is from Nexa, the same product just re-branded for the old ICI line that PPG bought out) Base Coat and VOC compliant clear as of January 1st 2010. It wasn't until fairly late 2009 that the VOC compliant clears were released in Canada and many shops never had that opportunity to learn, experiment or really test the product before they didn't have any other choice but to use it...Now to be fair, they may have changed the formulation but there were a fair amount of problems with respect to curing when the clears first came out, that's why I was wondering if you had tried them yet.

The Base Coat (Envirobase) is great, color match is incredible and the number of specialty colors is, as always from PPG fantastic. The Vibrance clear mid coat that replaced DBC500 is now a catalyzed mid coat but still uses the same dyes for candy's and other Vibrance colors.

Ray
04-12-2013 05:17 PM
JoAnnBortles Most of the time, when you hear about a painter having a problem its usually cos they are using a product for the first time.
And my best buddy when I painting, the tech sheet that goes with that product. I've been painting for 33 years and I am always opening up the binder I keep all my tech sheets in. I may use something all the time, but I still like to make sure I am correctly remembering the details of the product.
04-12-2013 05:08 PM
Mitchman [QUOTE=
That is the number thing many painters do wrong when they use a product they have not yet used. Most products will do the job you want it to do, BUT, first you have to learn how the product sprays, how it reacts under certain conditions.
How long does it take to dry?
How does it like to be sprayed?
Max amount of coats? (We custom painters usually do more than 2 coats.)
How long before its hard?
What does it take to really flow it out?
I never just use a new product on a customer's project. Never, cos every time I do, it bites me. So I slow down and learn.[/QUOTE]


I love to hear someone else say this. I've been away from the spray booth for 30 years. I've spent over $800.00 on 'stuff' to try out.... everything about this is new to me - it's just like learning nitrocellulose when I was in HS. I'm a year from painting my 34 coupe, but I've got 20+ panels here with varying degrees of success all over them. A few that have purposeful 'problems' just to see what happens if something goes wrong. That's what this hobby is all about, right?
04-12-2013 04:49 PM
JoAnnBortles
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Glad to see your posting JoAnn...I have a question for you, have you tried the PPG VOC compliant clears yet? I know you've used the Aquabase Water born base coat and that you can apply a non VOC compliant clear over top of it but my opinion on some of the new compliant clears is that they are harder to spray (to get that flat finish with a high gloss) and some take forever to cure. One in particular you need the metal temperature on the car to be 170 degrees F...not booth temperature but metal temperature in order for it to cure under baking conditions. PPG's always had a good line up of clears, from the concept clears...2021 to the Global clears...correct me if I'm wrong but I think the number is D893. The VOC compliant clears seem to leave a lot to be desired.

Ray
I have not yet used it so I cannot give any info. I can tell you this tho, PPG is brutal when it comes to testing their products before they are released to the jobbers. When a PPG product is released, it is something you can use. Paul Stoll, PPG's head tech guy, is a harsh judge of products. He speaks his mind and gives his honest opinion on things. This kind of honesty helps insure that new products are the best they can be before they are released.

Me, I tend to stick with what works for me. Products I have a history with. Last year I started using 2000 on some of my projects and I like it, for some things. But for show quality finish clear that I know will look great and wear like iron for 20 years, 2021 is the way to go.
But for some projects 2000 works great.
I do need to be more open minded and try new products, I have a few new clears from PPG that I will be trying this summer, but before I use them on customer's jobs, I test them on panels and learn how they spray.

That is the number thing many painters do wrong when they use a product they have not yet used. Most products will do the job you want it to do, BUT, first you have to learn how the product sprays, how it reacts under certain conditions.
How long does it take to dry?
How does it like to be sprayed?
Max amount of coats? (We custom painters usually do more than 2 coats.)
How long before its hard?
What does it take to really flow it out?

I never just use a new product on a customer's project. Never, cos every time I do, it bites me. So I slow down and learn.
04-12-2013 09:14 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoAnnBortles View Post
I have been using PPG's 2021 for 17 years now. Both of my bikes are painted with it. One thing i love about it, is that its rock hard in a day or so depending on which hardener you use. My bikes take a lot of abuse, i am not easy on my stuff, and they hold up fine.
As for buffing, one time was out of town and did not buff the paint until 2 weeks after it was sprayed and it buffed out so easy.
Last year a customer from 12 years ago sent me his old tins as the bike had been wrecked. I had to paint a new set for him. I got to keep the old stuff and one of the tanks only had a small ding in it. I simply fired up my buffer and the paint looks like new.
I love this stuff and feel its the most painter friendly clear there is. Plus its hard like glass and looks like it.
Glad to see your posting JoAnn...I have a question for you, have you tried the PPG VOC compliant clears yet? I know you've used the Aquabase Water born base coat and that you can apply a non VOC compliant clear over top of it but my opinion on some of the new compliant clears is that they are harder to spray (to get that flat finish with a high gloss) and some take forever to cure. One in particular you need the metal temperature on the car to be 170 degrees F...not booth temperature but metal temperature in order for it to cure under baking conditions. PPG's always had a good line up of clears, from the concept clears...2021 to the Global clears...correct me if I'm wrong but I think the number is D893. The VOC compliant clears seem to leave a lot to be desired.

Ray
04-12-2013 08:30 AM
JoAnnBortles I have been using PPG's 2021 for 17 years now. Both of my bikes are painted with it. One thing i love about it, is that its rock hard in a day or so depending on which hardener you use. My bikes take a lot of abuse, i am not easy on my stuff, and they hold up fine.
As for buffing, one time was out of town and did not buff the paint until 2 weeks after it was sprayed and it buffed out so easy.
Last year a customer from 12 years ago sent me his old tins as the bike had been wrecked. I had to paint a new set for him. I got to keep the old stuff and one of the tanks only had a small ding in it. I simply fired up my buffer and the paint looks like new.
I love this stuff and feel its the most painter friendly clear there is. Plus its hard like glass and looks like it.
04-12-2013 08:11 AM
302 Z28 One of the hardest most durable clears is PPG DCU2002. BarryK told me it is most like SPI's clear.

Vince
04-12-2013 05:36 AM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I apologize...I called you Mike...sorry bout that...I was thinking of another guy that I was talking Primers with...my bad, won't happen again.

Ray
It also comes in black and white so you can make any shade you want...
...........Mike.....
04-09-2013 08:54 AM
tech69
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
You don't want a clear that's going to be rock hard...if it's to hard it will have a tendency to chip easier. The clear should set up faster than 2 weeks...although some VOC compliant clears do take a long time to cure through...even when baked.

For price and quality, try SPI Universal Clear...sprays great, excellent flow and it will set up faster than 2 weeks...SPI also makes a number of other clears all priced extremely well...give them a call, let the guys know what you want from a clear and they will hook you up with a clear that will meet your needs.

Ray
and to think, a lot of these newer production clears are what he's asking for and they buff like crap, die back, and chip like you say.
04-09-2013 04:51 AM
jcclark I like and use SPI clears and to me the Universal is the softest
by far. that's why it can be buffed so easily, even weeks later.
If you want a hard clear, try their Euro.
I use that when painting dark colors like black because
It makes it so much easier to rid the swirls, because it's a harder clear.
(It's much cheaper too)
I like the Universal for my plastics, like bumpers, just for the
reason of being softer and more flexible.

If you want a clear that gets as hard as concrete in a couple of
days, try the Nasson by DuPont.
It's the hardest stuff I've ever seen.
04-08-2013 07:38 PM
OneMoreTime SPI all the way for me and I am no apology an amateur and I can get a good job with it so the experts should have no issues. Black epoxy for chassis and under hood, grey for body and universal clear. If you need a good sanding/filler primer use the SPI turbo as it is ready to sand in 20/30 minutes. Universal clear will lay out wet and slick so mimimal buffing is needed..

Sam
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