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Somebody is doing things wrong with lead, how do I get through to him?

13K views 126 replies 15 participants last post by  NEW INTERIORS 
#1 ·
Do you guys wanna hear a story that's funny and sad at the same time?

I know this guy that, well he's a do it your selfer...and that's cool...He knows that I've done a few early Fords in the last few years and he belongs to the same club that I did 2 of these old cars for. I went to a meeting for the club about 2 years ago and explained how some metal working equipment worked and how to use it...(I only had about an hour and a half so I condensed everything down and tried to hit on the basics). The Q & A got into using lead versus body filler and I thought the whole evening went quite well.

I've kept in touch with quite a few members and about 2 months ago, one of the members called me asked if I'd come and look at a project he was working on, so I did. When I got there I was amazed at all the equipment he'd run out and purchased, English wheel, shrinker stretcher, numerous body hammers, dolly's and everything imaginable for using lead, you name it, he had the makings of a well outfitted shop. He showed me what he had done to this vehicle and so far much of what he had done looked good but he had several questions about the back panel that had been hit quite hard and aftermarket parts for some reason weren't available and wanted to know how to fix it. I explained to him that he had an English Wheel and he could virtually cut out the damaged area and build a patch panel. Gave him a tutorial on how to use it and even took a piece of metal and showed him hoe it works, all seemed good.

Today I got another call from this fellow to come over and take a look at what he had done. I was shocked to say the least. Instead of using his equipment he welded in a piece of straight sheet metal and told me that he would get the curve of the panel by molding it out of lead. We are talking a panel about 36 inches by 36 inches with radius curves that should be all around the flat piece of sheet metal he had just welded in. This didn't seem to concern him, what his concern was, how well body filler stuck to lead. Some areas will have over 1/2 inch of lead work to get the shape of what the panel should look like.

I told him he would be better off to cut out the metal he had just welded in and make a proper repair panel, he got just a little less than furious with the suggestion and told me that he wasn't about to throw 4 hours of cutting metal and welding it into place when he could get what he wanted by using lead. I tried to explain that in the long run, getting the proper repair panel made and then welding it in would be faster, cheaper and the repair would last longer. Tomorrow he's going out, scouring the city for lead...I was speechless and all I could say was well if it doesn't seem to work out the way you planned, give me a call and we'll see what we can do about fixing it.

I don't know if I should send him a sympathy card or a get well card. I'd call it butcher work if the guy was lazy and just filled it with plastic, but I think he knows better and I just don't understand why he would buy all of the equipment and not use it...Hell, even if he didn't have a wheel, a hammer and eyeball would have saved him many hours of work a hundreds in material.

It's times like this that it feels as though trying to pass on knowledge seems futile. I am now asking you guys how to get through to this person, he's a good guy and I even volunteered to do it for him on a weekend...any suggestions?

Ray
 
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#100 ·
Thanks Bob, that Firebird is a PPG Tri-coat called "Tiger Eye", the mid coat is a transparent green with a product PPG calls liquid crystal. At one angle it's green at another angle it's a bronze color...I tried to get the bronze tone to show up in the pictures but it wouldn't...probably the camera I was using.

As you probably figured out, when it comes to Avatar and all that stuff, I'm clueless...to me Avatar was a blue chick in the movies...LOL

Ray
 
#102 · (Edited)
Thanks Randy, as I mentioned , I feel I'm a better painter than a metal worker...The vehicles that you saw pictures of where cars that I did from start to finish, metal work ( repair, making repair panels welding, etc), body work, prep and paint that I did for these vehicles. I can get metal straight and make panels, I am slow at it...I do take my time but, they fit. I'm sure if it was a situation where I was working with shaping metal more often, my speed would increase, for mow, I'm doing what I need to do to get through the day and make sure they fit.

The 68 Firebird was the first of the two vehicles the business partner of the Chevy 1/2 ton short box I did. The customer's, both great guys but, they talk to to other people in the trade and the easier thing for other be to say is "if I where you....and it should be done by now". This caused some friction between the owner and my self so he hired two journeyman body techs to do the cab and get it ready for paint...Randy, I was pissed. They put over 30 hours and got the car "ready for paint". Randy, I kid you not...it was a disaster. To much filler all over the cab, high spots from dents and a roof that was oil can real bad...they put on 3 coats of PPG high build primer, no DP40 Epoxy and told the owner "see, the cab is good to go. I good the third degree, I was accused of milking the project just to get more hours in...I let it go. Then I started blocking..it was a disaster..and I'm happy to say...I took pictures for the customer and now I know how to post them. It took me more time to repair the less than respectable body work and get it in shape for re-priming.

As it turned out, one of the hero bodymen was let go, (the other guy was awesome all he did was rough out a few dents and told the other guy to work the metal more before he used any filler, he had other jobs and only put in a few hours). I posted a few pictures after this hot shot body guy screwed up the truck). I started blocking with 600 wet for about 5 minutes...ran my hands across the panels and went to 180...the whole cab needed to be reworked. The roof with the oil can, I had to remove the filler, get rid of the oil can and do some straightening work. I hate having to redo other peoples work but, in the end it was my name on the truck. But the pictures show the poor workmanship..the owner and I had a few words, I showed him the pictures...and a funny thing happened...the owner and I started getting along much better after that...LOL.

This is the first time I'm showing pictures of what I had to do...hope it works. Oh, the picture on the right is the roof, it took a skim coat of filler..before I had areas over a 1/4 inch deep.

Ray
 

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#105 ·
I was pulling your leg Mr.Ray about the metal work,,:mwink: I know you know what your doing and talking about,,,I can tell and see it..:thumbup:

And I also know all about fixing others messed up work...:pain: I'm not sure how someone can do custom work for someone and NOT give 100% to them...:smash:

As long as you do the work as if it's your car,, They will be very happy in the end with your work... I wouldn't want to give someone something I wouldn't want..

Always remember this... It's your name on that build...;)
It's either going to speak GOOD about you , Or BAD about you..;)
 
#104 ·
Here is a picture of the Chevy Shot Box getting detailed before a car show in Lake George New York If you look closely, there isn't any tonneau cover on the box...he went to Lake George, won at the show (I was told that there where between 3,00 and 4,000 cars). When he got back, he told me he wanted a tonneau cove with the same flames painted on the cover as where on the hood. This was 6 months after I painted the hood. Thank God, i keep an hourly journal of what I do and what materials and colors I used for the airbrushing on the flames...I was able to match the hood...in tri-coat.

The engine is a 502 with a more serious cam, head work, super charger....the Horse Power output is around 800. One wild truck. Sorry I forgot to post the pictures of the engine compartment. Oh, by hte way, I had the every nut and bolt off of the truck and 1,308 pieces where painted separately and the bottom of the box and cab are as shiny as the outside. I'll post the pictures of the engine and the detail inside the cab.

Ray
 
#108 ·
If you have told him your opinion ,Once, and he has not changed any thing he probably wont,Sad to say,[/QUOT

Your right, telling him wouldn't have done a thing...put we did put on a seminar using his vehicle as an example, got his vehicle repaired properly, showed him how much better it worked seeing he had all the equipment he needed and he is now a believer...a strong believer. Probably this is the longest time I've spent to show the right way but it worked out very well.

Ray
 
#111 · (Edited)
Thanks for the kind words,,But !!
Remember Mr.Ray I'm just another car guy that set's no limit's on myself,, And push to out do myself everytime I do something.. I'm just a hotrodder at heart.. Born at the wrong time...

When I pro streeted this ford and a few other things to it,,, I sat with my friend for about 15Mins and he told me what he dreamed this truck would look like... And 5 weeks later, He came to get it and this is how it was sitting when he came over,, Him and his wife,,, He got out and walked around it and said..

Randy I couldn't have drawn a picture for you to come any closer to what I wanted,,, While he was checking everything out,, Me and his wife was talking and she say,, I can see in his eyes you gave him what he wanted after all these years,,,That really hit's home for me..

I went to his cruise night one night and he let me meet a friend of his,,, He asked me.. do you print out on a computer what you will be giving someone,,, My friend looked at him and said.. Nope !!!! He said well how do you do it ??? I said I spend 15mins talking to you and then I know what you want..;)

My friend said that's how he did it for me.... And gave me just what I dreamed of for years...

The things I do on these forums is try to give back what God gave me.. Don't always think what's in it for me ??? Give a little extra and you WILL be blessed in the long run for it...

Now.. Thanks you my friend... Here's a shot of my friends dream..;)

One of the worst things about these forums is,, You meet people from all over the world on here that becomes your friends,, So far a way that you most likey will never have the chance to meet them,, and you wish you could have that chance to do so,, I have a list of great guy's I would love to meet one day,, And you my friend are on that list,,;)

Now there's always the other list that it's best you don't meet,, LOL:thumbup:

 

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#112 ·
That is gorgeous Randy, 5 weeks, pretty impressive. You mentioned in a previous post that you can see a project done before you start...I'm the same way...it doesn't matter if it's remodeling a kitchen or building a car and I can only speak for me but, I think that's key.

I always sit down with a customer and talk, not only about the vehicle, but, to get to know him, likes and dislikes and after a while you can often make suggestions and hit that nail right on the head. I'm on a build now for a customer that I've done work for in the past so I pretty much know what he likes. Last Summer, we talked on the phone for a few hours one night and discussed the possibility of building a car that he had been thinking about and he told me that he would be coming into my neck of the woods in a short time and we should talk more. When he arrived, we went out for several pops and I was carrying a round tube with me, I opened the tube up and showed him a rendering of what we had talked about...he said build it. It took longer to figure out the budget than it did to decide that he wanted it done...LOL.

There are a list of things that I needed more information on and that's how I ended up here...I found that many members had the information I needed when it came to suspension and drive train and it's been a great resource. Being on my own is great...I work on what I always wanted to work on and can take real pride in what I do...but I still often missed that problem solving for shops when I was a rep...this forum has help fill part of that void and I hope I've been able to give back for all the knowledge I've received.

You never know Randy...We both have very much the same interests...and when that happens, paths cross more often than we think possible...If it's OK..I'd like to send you a PM tomorrow, I'd do it today but it's about 1 AM out here and I have another early morning planned for Saturday.

Ray
 
#118 ·
Well Mike...I'm just happy I figured out how to post pictures...it was getting embarrassing...one step at a time...LOL...Now...just like yourself...I gotta figure out how to get more pictures from camera onto my computer...the ones I have on my computer where put on there my my neighbors kid.

You know Bob, not all people would understand the fact that it is difficult to give a car back to a customer after you've poured your heart and soul into it...it's like it becomes a part of you..almost like your own kid and I've never seriously considered putting up one of my kids for adoption...for any long periods of time...LOL

Ray
 
#119 ·
Yeah Ray, adoption leaves too much of a paper trail -- better to just leave them by the side of the road! ;)

I painted a Cutlass for a friend. Took it from oxidized gray to beautiful black. I was quite proud of it. He got a lot of compliments on the car after that. Kept it 3 weeks then sold it! If I had known that I would have turned down the job. I spent longer than that getting it prepped.
 
#120 ·
I hate that more than you know. I had a friend of a friend come to me years ago with a 70 Firebird (You know how much I love I love my Pontiacs). It was a decent car, a bit of rust but very respectable. He went on and on about how much he loved the car, always wanted one finally found one for a reasonable price ($750) and how little money he had. I listened as he told me that if I could just patch it up and paint it he would be forever grateful but he only had limited funds.

I cut out the rust, repaired the quarters, blocked the car until it was as straight as an arrow. When he picked up the car he was overjoyed and again told me how he had always wanted one and just loved the car. He paid me the agreed upon amount (which basically covered materials), drove off into the sunset.

Two weeks later, he auctioned the car off for almost 10 times what I charged him. Did he have a change of heart, no, this was his plan the whole time...was I pissed, still am.

Ray
 
#126 ·
So true Randy...and sometimes more than two sides. I think most people have had to give up things that they didn't want to, I know I've had a few things that I thought I would keep forever....and sometimes circumstances can dictate priorities. The people that I'm talking about about are the ones that are trying to take advantage right from the start and know what they are going to do.

If the guy suddenly came upon real hard times, I can understand and would bare no ill will...stuff happens. If it was planned...may his profits haunt him.

Ray
 
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