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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-17-2013 01:22 PM
painted jester In my shop I did keep a log dated foreach day and hrs. and every time I run into something unforeseen ( hidden body or frame surprises) its added and I itemize and the customer signs the log with the add ons and price quotes and when I run into something I call them and they come in I show what I found and get an ok and he signs again the Log! There are no surprises to my customers! I also take pics of everything I find and Of my repairs! The customer gets copies of everything as I progress! But you always get the one guy who planes big and in the end tries to get you to settle for less because his planes were bigger then the budget ended up being or the windfall he was expecting fell through!

These customers are far and in between I have been really lucky LOL I had just this one in 35 years of running and owning my own business and it was in my last 2 years of down sizing and retiring, right at the time this recession hit and this guy was hit hard by the recession and the stock market crash and was trying to get me to settle for less! I locked down the car put a lean on it and went to court and it was arbitrated and I had to settle for a little less!!! But that's how the cookie crumbles! If I kept the car I would have had to auction it and recoup my Money and anything it brought in over what was owed me would have gone to the original owner on the lean. So rather then take a chance at an auction I settled for a few thousand less! but I still made money!

Gas Monkey Garage and Fast & loud are a comedy act to me , They are dangerous, untrained, hacks, and the shows are funny to my wife and I LOL, those 2 shows should be shown in every high school auto class as an example on what not to do LOL!!!! I cant see how no one has been killed or seriously hurt or burned yet or shot for trespassing or climbing over someones private fence! The show with the Model A and the green gasser were a couple of the funniest!! Pouring gas down the carb throat while cranking it over and the guy caught himself on fire LOL and then he threw the burning gas container ROTFLMAO Ridiculous LOL I saw the same thing on Jessy James show LOL They also state things about the cars that are absolutely not true !!!!! Like the model A Glass being made in different dimensions and installed in the cars on the assembly line that way because the cars measurements were way off so Fast & louds glass they ordered wouldn't fit!!! And their glass came in cut to big so they ordered new glass Why didn't they take it to a glass shop and have it cut down to size!!!! And they busted out the old glass with a hammer instead of removing them with the hardware (they said it was faster), But they still would have to remove the hardware to install the new glass let alone clean up the broken glass all over the shop and the old glass would have been good for patterns and measurements! And the Green Ford Gasser Never made it down the track It broke down LOL ETC,ETC,ETC, LOL

Those reality shows if real and not staged are the worst examples of humanity and show how stupid people are and stupid people watching those stupid shows think they themselves aren't stupid when they actually are and actually think normal people going through life act like the stars of these reality shows!!!!! And believe they can build good cars!

So the outcome is that these reality shows help dumb down America and make us look dumb to the rest of the world LOL

Jester
06-17-2013 10:59 AM
AutoGear Russell Mitchell gained notoriety in the custom bike TV star days. Hes a british guy, builds some real bare knuckled stuff. There was a TV Show on SPEED where he'd take some off the shelf dork and instruct the guy in how to build a bike. It seems like the poor yutz that thinks this is easy had to: Build/Modify a tank, wire the bike, 'lace' the spoked wheels, assemble the bike and make whatever custom doodads were necessary. He also had to meet the deadlines for paint or powdercoat etc. At the end of the week, the bike had to fire and move under its own power AND Exile Cycles (Russell's shop) judged the guy on fit and finish and design execution. Show didn't last long. I mentioned it to a friend from college that sells ads and marketing services. His response was interesting "Its too real. People who watch these are daydreaming of what they could or would do, but they have no interest in the reality of it. Too much reality reminds them that they're too lazy to learn, and they won't watch. Its an escape for the guy whos an accountant and always dreamed of being George Barris. Theres gotta be a happy ending and its got to seem vaguely plausible to the average house dad; same with survival shows, whole lotta guys going 'I COULD DO THAT!' when they cant walk a mile."
06-17-2013 10:15 AM
69 widetrack I'd like to see, as you suggested, something like, the labor, $100K, Parts $97K MIsc 23K...total build price $220K...and I wouldn't care how much Chip Foose, or Tim Strange got...keep that private...it would just be more real and not get a whole bunch of people all hot and bothered about starting a build and have it ending up someones else's project when they run out of skill or money.

I'm sure that TV exposure would explode that number...I can only imagine...I remember being asked on a daily basis come spring time for free paint material.

Ray
06-17-2013 10:00 AM
sedanbob Ray, I would like that too. I can understand that not every sponsor would like their level of support/investment known, but seeing a few bottom lines along the way would be good. If they told you an engine total, a paint job total, then maybe an estimate of what the total build was worth, I'm sure that would raise the appreciation level of the average viewer, and keep things real for the builders.

I'm not sure anything will keep people from trying to get stuff for free. I think the higher you get in the industry, the more people you have asking for something. TV exposure probably explodes that number.
Bob
06-17-2013 09:39 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by sedanbob View Post
Ray, That is a great idea! It wouldn't take anything away from the show, and would probably enhance the general public's appreciation for the amount of work (and cost) that go into building someone's dream car. I know I couldn't have afforded my car if I had to pay for all the labor I put into it.
You know Bob, I was just sitting here thinking, I'm a small time builder, I don't have the Chip Foose name...but...I used to be a paint rep and I remember every guy that had a brain fart about being a race car driver, or building a show car, whatever, they always came to me with their hand out, wanting free material, sponsor ship...I couldn't afford to do it and maintain a bottom line if I gave all the material away that I was asked about.

That brings me to the sponsors of these shows, how would it hurt them if on the show it was mentioned that APD or whoever sponsored $15,000 in parts or the engine donated by whoever cost 20K to build. I don't know but, I would appreciate the supplier that donated their product and the value of their product...hell I'd even like to see a disclaimer at the end of the show stating that the supplier will determine who they donate too, so please don't ask.

I think it would give more credibility to the show...for me it would be more real.

I know that when Counting Cars first came on the scene, they came on this forum and asked if anyone on here would like to sell their cars on the show...do any other people affiliated with this television, build a car, reality BS (the way it is today) read forums like this. If they do, they need to look at the whole picture and get real themselves.


Ray
06-17-2013 09:26 AM
sedanbob
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
...I would like to see one show say, we have 2,500 hours into this build and at an average shop the cost of labor would be...$140,000...the parts bill would be...X amount. It would give the public, the enthusiast with a fat wallet a much better idea of how fat his wallet really needs to be, because he can't do the work himself.

Ray
Ray, That is a great idea! It wouldn't take anything away from the show, and would probably enhance the general public's appreciation for the amount of work (and cost) that go into building someone's dream car. I know I couldn't have afforded my car if I had to pay for all the labor I put into it.
06-17-2013 09:12 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1971BB427 View Post
People who don't build for a living, or build their own cars, wont ever realise how long some "little thing" can take to accomplish properly. And if it's not accomplished perfectly they'll be the first ones to point out a flaw.
I only build my own cars, and wouldn't want to build for anyone else. It's nice when somebody notices some personalized change I've made, and even more so when the guy who notices is a respected builder. But when some nimrod points out something on my car, and tries to tell me how he'd do it differently, it's tough to bite my tongue and not ask, "How many cars have you built?"
X2 on what you posted...From what I've learned over the years, the more cars that you've built yourself, the less you need to say about others.

Ray
06-17-2013 09:06 AM
1971BB427 People who don't build for a living, or build their own cars, wont ever realise how long some "little thing" can take to accomplish properly. And if it's not accomplished perfectly they'll be the first ones to point out a flaw.
I only build my own cars, and wouldn't want to build for anyone else. It's nice when somebody notices some personalized change I've made, and even more so when the guy who notices is a respected builder. But when some nimrod points out something on my car, and tries to tell me how he'd do it differently, it's tough to bite my tongue and not ask, "How many cars have you built?"
06-17-2013 08:58 AM
AutoGear Troy Trepanier was interviewed by Hot Rod mag a few months ago. They did a retrospective of some of his hallmark cars, all the way back to the PINK chevelle. He did one of these 'pro touring' builds for TV Host Joe Rogan. Huge rear wheels, car looks like a hot wheels car or something. Anyway, Rogan is NOT a car guy, he just wanted a new toy. In print, Trepanier says (paraphrasing) "If you're not a car guy, and you don't have several high level cars that you've bankrolled already, I won't take the job - we build cars for car guys." I suppose when Poteet is your patron, you're financially allowed to say that.

One of my best friends is a custom bike builder. He builds "rider quality" bikes. They look nice, but they're made to RIDE. They're comfortable, pretty mild paint, not too loud usually and they're not a slave to todays trend. If a guy wants a 350mm rear tire, he wont do it. Its not that he cant, but he likes doing more traditional bikes. He said that the biker boom 15 years ago or so was great for business, but hes glad he didnt take the pile of money he made and build a huge shop and lease tons of equipment like some guys did, cuz he'd never get his money back out of it. "I figured it'd last the better part of 10years, then the TV types would move on to something else." Now he doesn't do much customer work. He builds bikes that he likes and sells em. No customer coming in and bothering him while hes working. But he's paid his dues and can afford to do that.
06-17-2013 08:16 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Jester, you need to give them a copy of the whole RO every time they add something. Give them a "report" showing what it started at, what they have paid and what is due, there will be no surprises at the end. I tried something that worked great, a "time card" right on the car so when the guy walked in to check on the progress he could see the hours he will be billed. Collecting right then is the best way, when they pick up the car it's only a small bill as it was paid for throughout the project.

I love you how you look at the TV shows as a businessman, you sure see it differently than the average viewer! "Why can't you finish my car in three days like they do on tv instead of taking so long and charging me so much?" , double

Brian

Brian
Actually Brian, I have made a point of every add on, every minor change, I now go through the entire RO...I show them how that minor change can set off a whole chain reaction, effect build time...It has helped, but, that's when I've gotten the friend card being pulled a few times...I hate that card. I'll have to show you my RO...on the very bottom I have put "if you want to be my friend, call me after 6PM"...I now point to that.

Ray
06-17-2013 08:08 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
I watch the Chip Foose show "Overhaulin" its Ok but being in the business for so many years with my own shop and doing restoration and race building and customs, I have the problem of counting workers and figuring man hrs they actually put into the car LOL And I Grumble under my breath SH *T some are hitting over a hundred grand LOL. 2 weeks, or 14 8 hr days 15 people at 70 dollars an hr. (reasonable rate) that's 1680 hrs or 117,600 dollars if they charged I'm not even counting parts or material or farming out work (but they are donated.) if it takes only a week that's still over 50 thousand and probably as much in parts and materialand they say on the show they work well into the night! So add in overtime LOL The normal citizen that doesn't look at these shows like I do probably gets more enjoyment out of them!! LOL

On car warriors 72 hrs 8 men on one team and all new top line parts and materiel right there for the pickings brand new, the cars aren't done very well, with my trained eyes I spot the flaws and yell at my wife "DID YOU SEE THAT" LOL Any way 72 hrs 8 men (and women) same labor rate I'm adding in my head LOL while watching the show that's $40,320.oo add parts like super charged big block , trans, rear end drum to drum, interior, complete sound system tires, rims, ETC ETC and your getting close to $60,000.oo or well over !!

The last restoration I did (that started as just a paint job and rust repair) was a 65 SS 396 Impala big block convertible ( not a frame off ) but a complete resto and by myself and my helper (the wife) it was in terrible shape and parts near imposable to find it took 1 1/2 years to complete but only a little over 1,025 hrs actual labor its in my journal. but as we in the business know after you get the starter money (I like half down)!! and you come to the point you are over that, the money comes in spurts and the customer wants you to do more which increases the price (I hate that) and when the cars done even though you kept the guy abreast of the charges during the whole build; at the end when you go to get the balance owed you get the old "HOW COME IT COST SO MUCH " "I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS THAT HIGH" then you set down and go over everything on the bill step by step that He signed, on what he wanted done! And then your skills are put to the test on diplomacy because you want to put his head in your louver press and put a ouver right between his eyes LOL! That's the worst example I ever had!

The good customers really make up for the few bad over 35 years!

How many can relate to that LOL

Jester
Let me be the first to hit the thank you button and wish I could hit it more than once.

I realize that these shows are entertainment, however, I have also seen what they do to the enthusiast that doesn't know that they don't know, they pick up a few catch phrases like flash times, blocking, shrinking stretching, hammer, dolly, butt welding...and try and talk the talk...but couldn't walk the walk.

I had a customer that i was building a car for...he was a loyal watcher of all these shows (I should have known, he had an autographed picture of Chip Foose on his desk at his place of work). After watching one of these shows, he came storming into the shop and demanding to know what I did in all the hours that he had paid me for and that there was going to be no more payments....you get the drift....I let him rant until he made one comment..."I've built a bunch of cars and I've never...". I stopped him there, I explained to him that he had never built anything...his wallet was what gave him the ability to pay the builder.

I do keep a log, it showed every hour and what was done...I finished the job, I've been asked to do more work for this gentleman, I am always conveniently booked.

Your so right, I think Chip and his gang build good cars, I think Search and Restore probably build good cars...I would like to see one show say, we have 2,500 hours into this build and at an average shop the cost of labor would be...$140,000...the parts bill would be...X amount. It would give the public, the enthusiast with a fat wallet a much better idea of how fat his wallet really needs to be, because he can't do the work himself.

Now on the other side of the coin, as painted jester said, there are the really good customers, the guys that do understand and know what it takes to do it right. I have one of those customers right now. I am doing a build that will probably take 2 years...working with him it seems like a holiday compared to building a car for the Saturday morning Car-toon watcher that thinks he's getting an education.

Ray
06-17-2013 08:06 AM
MARTINSR Jester, you need to give them a copy of the whole RO every time they add something. Give them a "report" showing what it started at, what they have paid and what is due, there will be no surprises at the end. I tried something that worked great, a "time card" right on the car so when the guy walked in to check on the progress he could see the hours he will be billed. Collecting right then is the best way, when they pick up the car it's only a small bill as it was paid for throughout the project.

I love you how you look at the TV shows as a businessman, you sure see it differently than the average viewer! "Why can't you finish my car in three days like they do on tv instead of taking so long and charging me so much?" , double

Brian
06-16-2013 11:59 PM
painted jester I watch the Chip Foose show "Overhaulin" its Ok but being in the business for so many years with my own shop and doing restoration and race building and customs, I have the problem of counting workers and figuring man hrs they actually put into the car LOL And I Grumble under my breath SH *T some are hitting over a hundred grand LOL. 2 weeks, or 14 8 hr days 15 people at 70 dollars an hr. (reasonable rate) that's 1680 hrs or 117,600 dollars if they charged I'm not even counting parts or material or farming out work (but they are donated.) if it takes only a week that's still over 50 thousand and probably as much in parts and materialand they say on the show they work well into the night! So add in overtime LOL The normal citizen that doesn't look at these shows like I do probably gets more enjoyment out of them!! LOL

On car warriors 72 hrs 8 men on one team and all new top line parts and materiel right there for the pickings brand new, the cars aren't done very well, with my trained eyes I spot the flaws and yell at my wife "DID YOU SEE THAT" LOL Any way 72 hrs 8 men (and women) same labor rate I'm adding in my head LOL while watching the show that's $40,320.oo add parts like super charged big block , trans, rear end drum to drum, interior, complete sound system tires, rims, ETC ETC and your getting close to $60,000.oo or well over !!

The last restoration I did (that started as just a paint job and rust repair) was a 65 SS 396 Impala big block convertible ( not a frame off ) but a complete resto and by myself and my helper (the wife) it was in terrible shape and parts near imposable to find it took 1 1/2 years to complete but only a little over 1,025 hrs actual labor its in my journal. but as we in the business know after you get the starter money (I like half down)!! and you come to the point you are over that, the money comes in spurts and the customer wants you to do more which increases the price (I hate that) and when the cars done even though you kept the guy abreast of the charges during the whole build; at the end when you go to get the balance owed you get the old "HOW COME IT COST SO MUCH " "I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS THAT HIGH" then you set down and go over everything on the bill step by step that He signed, on what he wanted done! And then your skills are put to the test on diplomacy because you want to put his head in your louver press and put a ouver right between his eyes LOL! That's the worst example I ever had!

The good customers really make up for the few bad over 35 years!

How many can relate to that LOL

Jester
06-16-2013 03:23 PM
69 widetrack Your right, most don't have any idea, they are ignorant and if they have an open mind they can be educated. We are all ignorant of something, so I can appreciate someone not knowing. It's the ones that think they have an idea and don't, their mind is closed because they feel that they know it all regardless...those are ignorant idiots. They could very well be the ones that watch reality TV, believe it and get that priceless education from writers, director and actors.

Love the sign in your Dad's shop...now that's reality.

It almost seems like there is a double standard, not so much in the auto body industry, but I remember when I was in the mechanical side...if I had a car booked say at 2 PM...if it wasn't in the shop and the work started by 2:15 PM, I would get yelled at but, if they go to a doctors office, they don't like it but they can wait for hours and don't say a word.

Ray
06-16-2013 03:11 PM
boothboy All of you guys are right. But the real cause of all these problems began when Cable TV was invented. That led to Satellite TV. When those two products came to being, "reality tv" went from "Days of our Lives" to the endless crap that's being shown today. Why is it so prevalent today? Simple. It's cheap to produce. Very little scripting and very little writing. Very little production costs. You have to fill all those channels with something. One idea guy comes up with a premise and it's cloned ten more times. Now you have ten lousy shows. Put that together with at least two generations of people with the attitude that things are "owed to them" because everyone else has " it" and show them flashy people who are " bigger than life" telling them how easy things are, and you have a moron watching a flashy moron on tv and believing everything that's shoved down their throats. It must be true because theres ten shows showing the same thing. Common sense went out the window when the viewer failed to realize the these shows aren't anything but but a vehicle to make you want to buy the sponsors products.

BB
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