|07-06-2013 10:42 AM|
|07-06-2013 09:31 AM|
Coming along nicely. Are you gonna get some fatter tires for the back?
They look like they're recessed quite far in.
|07-05-2013 08:35 PM|
Welcome back Old Thread... Willys is slowly coming along. The S-10 chassis fit surprisingly well. Did measurements and called AFCO--had a alum radiator and 3000 cfm e-fan that fit perfectly. Next up is an Ididit tilt column and custom gas tank then headers. Already did 2" front drop spindles and blocks for the rear. Everything on the suspension gone through and rebuilt/replaced... a few pics:
|04-11-2013 08:45 AM|
steering problems with S-10 swaps
I started a S-10 frame swap with a '39 Ford fordor body years ago. Just gets worked on intermittanley. I made a plywood template to match the stock frame and laid it on the S-10 frame and cut it to match the top profile. Channelled the body over it for a better stance.Located the motor mounts to put my 2007 5.3 with 1802 miles on it so it was close to the firewall. Looks good but the steering is driving me nuts.Tried moving the box over 2 1/4" and tilted it just a little. That, even with the center link lengthed in the proper spot, caused too many issues with the way the steering moves. Now I am working on installing a center-steer rack and when I figure out how to turn the hydraulic control part for better hose placement, hopefull I can continue at a much faster pace since I retired two months ago. Martinsr, I agree with 90% of your posts. At the time I was a single dad with my son in a private school. It was S-10 or nothing. Now I am much better financially and wish I still had my stock frame.I am above average at fabrication and have many resources available so I hope I can make this work. Thanks to everyone for all the comments on this. Steve
|04-05-2013 11:48 PM|
Hey Guys! I'm back... had a pretty bad car wreck last March. Kid pulled out in front of me when I was driving 50 mph with no warning--didn't even get my foot on the brake before BOOM! Anyway, a busted up right wrist and two subsequent surgeries, a cast for 3 months and 2 months of missed work and income (self employed with 2 kids in college) put the brakes on the Willys project. Finally got started again last month.
To update: the S-10 frame is easily adjustable, just cut out a couple welds and the frame slides to the needed length, the re-weld. Had to fabricate new body mounts to match the Willys body mount points. Cleaned, blasted and painted the frame. Replaced all bushings and had to do surprisingly little cutting on the body to get it to set down properly. It is now a complete rolling assembly. All focus recently has been on fabbing and replacing floor pans, fabbing a new trans tunnel to fit the tranny (used a section of the Old's hood and bent it to shape--worked perfect) and fitting welding in patch panels for the rear quarters that were rusted out.
Still have a TON of work to do... wiring, brake lines, instruments, A/C, interior, paint, etc, etc. But it is coming along! Hardest decision so far has been chosing a color. My wife wanted '67 Corvette Sunfire Yellow... I chose late model GM Torch Red and will paint the top above the drip rail something like Wimbledon White. Tan interior (re-upolstered Porsche Recaro buckets) should really look good. Can't wait!
|04-05-2013 10:37 PM|
i found on my willys wagon that a s10 needed motor moved to clear radiator,,,plus w.b. adj. and firewall mod.
so i found a 2001 taco in boneyard with same 104 inch w.b. for 225 bucks
willys fit perfect except for 1 ft. in back floor needed notched 3 inches for frame rails. i moved rad forward to clear fan on my hiperf. ford 2.3 1985 with c4 auto. headers...23mpg 65mph, power rack on taco is located behind xmember so u cant see it. nice stk. a-arms too.
no more s10 swaps for me,,,toyota tacoma better fit,,,straight frame,,,power r/p steering
|02-12-2012 04:04 PM|
Great stuff!!! Gives me lots to think about. I picked up the S10 yesterday--very straight '95 roller for $300... my stock frame is "quite used". Butchered somewhat for a V-8 swap in the '50's, too many rough off-road excursions to count, several rust-through areas that will need repair/patching, holes cut through with a cutting torch for exhaust--you get the picture. Planning on pulling the S10 body this week and taking a lot of measurements before any work procedes. If the fit is not good enough or the 'extra mods' are too onerous--I will repair the stock frame and add the MII-style front susp/brakes.
I live in west Texas... no such thing as a short drive by most standards out here. Will be driving to shows/rod runs in Dallas, Austin, Lubbock, etc. 3-400 mile round trips at 70 mph will be the norm. I have driven in several restored Willys with the orig suspension/brakes. No thanks. Even if I do end up keeping the orig frame I will be definitely going with IFS/discs.
|02-12-2012 02:34 PM|
Aftermarket IFS vs S10 chassis
Looks means a lot to everyone especially the guy driving (me). I hate to see those swaps where the tires are sticking out from under the front fenders. I always say to myself, there is a Camero, Monte Carlo, Malibu or etc swap where the guy didn't measure well and can not afford to buy offset wheels or doesn't know how to narrow the front end.
Almost everyone advised me to put disc brakes on my dropped axle '29 roadster. I didn't like the look. I wanted the "old" 50's Hot Rod look but I wanted something better than the old "juice" brakes. So I put '53 F100 backing plates, radiased the inside bearings and used '66 F100 shoes and hardware. I have the look I wanted and I have self adjusting drum brakes on the front as well as the back. And it stops well enough for me. The disc brakes would have been about the same price.
I drive the '29 maybe 100 miles a month even in good weather. I put 250K miles on my 94 Jimmy and never minded the ride. So on my '48 two door I opted for an S10 front clip because I want to drive it long distances, it was in my price range and capabilities. I opted to put my money into the swap rather than into repairing the '48 suspension. But that's just me, someone else may want to go another way. And that OK.
|02-12-2012 01:55 PM|
|02-12-2012 01:50 PM|
This is one of the biggest issues, What does the builder REALLY want? As far as the ride and drive, what is the builders expectations and uses of the car? Is he going to be pulling a trailer? Is he going to be a race car? Or are we just talking about a driver? A car that will be cruising to work once in a while or to a local show?
Do you need to change everything to do that?
I drive a stock brake and suspension 50 year old car every day. It stops just fine, but handles like crap. I get into my wife's Caravan and it feels like a Z06 Vette compared to my car. But I am fine with that, I drive down simple surface streets, I don't need anything more. But this is me, what does the guy building the car REALLY need?
Is it to drive like I do everyday with only an occasional long trip? Why build the car for that occasional long trip when 99% of its road time will be in such a way that the stock or near stock suspension will be fine?
Is it's "Function" all that matters? Or is the looks also important to them? Do they need to tell people all the great things they did? (I am not knocking this, just being realistic.)
I recently bought this Caravan and I bought something a little less than I had been planning on buying. I had a larger mini van, it had rear a/c, and I wanted at the very minimum that rear a/c. But I also had planned on "stow and go" seating (seats that fold down under the floor creating a loading area) I had been thinking about getting a new van for quite some time and this was a MUST have, why not? It was the best of both worlds and I wanted that. Well, we went looking and found this real nice Caravan, SUPER nice low mileage car. It had no rear a/c and no stow and go seats.
But I also learned that I would have to have the longer wheel base "Grand Caravan" to have that a/c and stow and go seats. I got to thinking, how often do I use the rear a/c in my current van, not often. But more important, how often do I REALLY need it? Well, a few times on road trips out in Arizona or something, why worry about the a/c when I use it so little of the time the van is used? Then I thought about the stow and go, I have a friggin utility trailer, do I REALLY need this storage in the van? When have a REALLY missed it? ONCE, one time I remember picking up an antique desk after a very long drive and wishing I had the room for another piece he had. So REALLY, do I need the stow and go? This van is used about 99% of the time driving kids to school and local outings. The little shorter van will make THIS use easier. So why buy the one that makes the 1% of it's use easier? That made no sense to me and I immediately after realizing this made the decision very easy. I bought the shorter van and we love it. My wife has commented on how much easier it is go maneuver thru parking lots and such, it was a MUCH better choice.
That is what we have to think about, do we REALLY need that modern front clip or frame?
I can't help but think of that co-worker with the super nice driving I beam axled Chevy AD who changed it all because someone talked him into him "needing" to make it "easier" to work on because they couldn't figure out an oil leak in the 235 six. He has had nothing but trouble since with brake problems, cooling problems, etc. All this means of course is the guy who couldn't figure out the oil leak in the old motor hasn't the skills to do the swaps either. double rolling eyes smilie But he is damn sorry he swapped it all, and I am doing my best to get the dropped axle and 55 Chevy rear end he pulled out for MY truck!
|02-12-2012 01:28 PM|
One also has to weigh in appearance and ascetics when he is done and the finished project is being driven on the road and taken to events if that is the plan. That is on reason I am more inclined to want to go with and aftermarket crossmember kit rather than a bulky chassis and front crossmember or subframe.
I did run a Camaro subframe under the front of my 48 for a number of years and it drove like a slot car on a good track but I didn't like the clunky look of it nor the hassle with the front sheet metal.
I'm not totally anti S-10 as I have a spare AD truck cab and pieces that may go on one in the future but the price of S-10 doners in this area has skyrocketed to the point where there isn't much of a saving if you have a good frame under your rig to begin with.
But if the Jeep's original frame is hacked up due to crude engine swaps in the past and many Jeeps had extremely crude engine swaps in the 60's then the S-10 swap would be a lot more practical.
I think what MartinSr and I are both trying to say is that it may be more practical in the long run to use a "good solid" stock frame and run a crossmember kit and rear end swap in most rigs than buy into the S-10 swap thing.
|02-12-2012 12:52 PM|
Aftermarket IFS vs S10 chassis
Chopt 48 and MartinSr give good advise. One has to weigh the advantages and disadvantages; time and money plus experience and available experienced help (if you feel inadequate) and go for it. The other consideration is what do you intend to do with the car.
|02-12-2012 12:21 PM|
+1 The S-10 setup works on GM AD trucks because it is easy to space the cab off the frame to get things to line up and you can raise the bed floor easily along with some trimming on the front inner fenders. But it isn't the cure all fix all that a lot of people think it is.
1. Those little Jeeps had hell for stout frames to begin with and they are running around with V8 conversions and have been for over 50 years. My 8BA flathead came out of a Jeep Wagon that it was installed in back in the 50's or 60's and there are many in this area with V8 Chevs in them.
2. I wouldn't be quick to discard or destroy the jeep frame because I would have to believe you will find that you are going to have to hack up the jeep floor pan more than you want to to get the S-10 frame to fit and not have the body sit six or eight inches above the frame in the center. Once you get both frames out and sitting side by side I believe you will discover that you have way more work ahead of you than you planned on and the bulk of the front suspension is going to cause a lot of hacking and cutting on the front sheet metal of the Jeep.
3. The detractors to the MII setup are still the same misinformed bunch that have always been around since the beginning. Think the factory isn't up to the job go to O'Reilly's site and Put 76 Mustang II in the car choice and then look up the upper ball joints. then click on Compatible with then after you see what those ball joints fit, come back and tell me that they aren't as stout as S-10 pieces. The wheel bearings are the same wheel bearings that Ford has put on almost every vehicle they ever built.
That and the aftermarket front ends use very few original Ford parts anyhow.
300 for a junk S-10 frame, 2/300 to swap front brakes XX to swap rear ends (why does it need a rear end swap?) Plus 3/400 in parts to rebuild the S-10 suspension because it is worn out and add 300 to that if you have to have someone else do it and pretty soon you have more in that swap in $$$ than the best MII setup out there.
|02-12-2012 11:30 AM|
Frame swap thoughts
Of course it "can" be done. My argument with it is that the average guy who comes on here asking "what frame will work under my 51 Ford F-1"? is looking for an easy way out.
The typical guy who posts about frame swaps see things like this:
1. He has never even driven a stock truck with everything rebuilt and operating properly. He has no idea if that would be right for him. All he has is a twisted idea on how it drives from his worn out old truck, or worse, he has never even driven it because he bought it as a basket case.
2. He thinks there is some "easy way out" like when you have a flat head motor that is whooped and yank it out and stick in a small block Chevy with an adapter. Yep, problem solved, a frame "swap" like that doesn't exist. But in many peoples minds, that is EXACTLY what happens, just find the right frame and bolt it in.
3. It will be cheaper than anything else. He feels that buying another late model frame that the parts aren't "all old and rusty". He went thru his Summit, Speedway and Jegs Catalogs and with a wish list of all the new IFS set ups, brake lines, master cylinder, disc brake kits, steering boxes, sway bars, link kits, springs shackles, shocks, motor mount kits, brake pedal kits, ect. Then he went on eBay to find the 57 9" he wants and he adds this all up and it's WAY, WAY more money than his wife has allotted for his build. He does a quick look on Craigs list and finds a guy with an S-10 being parted out that still has a COMPLETE rolling chassis for only $500! ALL the parts he will need for a tenth of what Summit, Speedway and Jegs wanted for the "same" stuff!
4. It will be so fast! Just cut and weld the front end on or make a few "body mounts" and get his buddies over to transfer the cab and bed over to the "new frame" and he will be KA-ROOOZ-EEENG.
1. He has driven this truck home with a barely running, oil smoking worn out old wrecking yard Chevy 350 that the PO swapped in. The suspension is mostly original and the tires are mismatched and junk. The brakes are shot with one wheel cyl leaking so bad the brake line was removed from it and an a plug put on the end of the line. It drives like crap and he really loves how his 2008 Chevy pickup drives and he just can't live with this.
He has never driven a nice original truck so he thinks this is how they drive. If he drove a nice rebuilt, drop axled modernized brake I beam axle truck he may find that it is well within his expectations and he would enjoy the difference from his daily driver.
2. Like the guy who looks at an engine swap and says “you had to make the motor mounts”? or “That sure looks like it went in easy” he has no clue that the motor mounts are the easy part, just as the body mounts will be with the frame “swap”. The headers to clear the steering, the moving of the steering, the notch and relief in the firewall for the distributor, change of the radiator so the fan clears the lower hose, the moving of the brake pedal because it hit the bell housing, the changing of wiring over to the other side where the new starter is, notching of the oil pan to clear the tie rod, rebuilding of the X member to clear the trans, the cutting of the drive shaft, notching of the front crossmember to clear the lower pully, etc. He has no idea what the engine swap looks “easy” because the guy who did it is very talented and MADE it look “easy” with LOADS of work and time. The “body mounts” are the easiest part in the frame “swap”. The running board mounts, the bumper mounts, the rad support needing modification, the floor on the cab needing holes welded and new ones cut for brake linkage, the fender supports, the bed mounts that need to be cut and fabbed, steering linkage to column fabbing, moving of the rear end on the frame because the wheelbase is off, the cutting of the drive shaft, replacement of the rad because the support has been modified, the changing of the motor mounts because the motor was further forward on the frame in the donor car, etc. There are a TON of modifications needed to “swap” the frame that the guy looking for an “easy way out” doesn’t see thru his rose colored glasses.
3. He has the mistaken thought that the late model frame he is going to buy for the “swap” has all the parts he needs and they can be used as is. Nope, he gets into the “swap” and finds that the brake lines will need to be changed because of the relocating of the master cyl and moving the rear end forward. The rotors are shot, the calipers can be used but they will require a clean up. The front end will need to be disassembled and the ball joints will all need to be replaced being the boots get torn taking it apart. The springs aren’t going to work being they are too stiff or so soft, too high, too low. The shocks need replacing, (well of course I am not going to run with those worn out shocks!) and the master and wheel cylinders will get changed because the right one is leaking anyway, and the master has a brake line rusted into it. Or it simply won’t work in the new location, no room. The hoses of course will be changed (come on now, what kind of hack do you think I am, I am not going to drive with those cracked old hoses) The front sway bar needs to be replaced with new mounts because it hits the fabbed bumper brackets and rad support, and of course the link bushings are all junk and besides, they are lowly rubber I need the hot rod urethane bushings, the tie rod ends need to be changed for the same reason as the ball joints, the boots are torn and besides, who reuses old steering components, new ones are only $20 each. And it goes on and on. If you just throw together a junker with the replacement frame, sure it will save you money, but who in the world does that? He may THINK you are going to, but then comes looking at that rear end all funky, CRAP, it comes apart and gets painted, now you need to replace the e brake cables, the cover gasket, the lube in it, ect.
Where in reality there he didn’t need all that stuff from the catalogs, there is a middle of the road where most could be had from the wrecking yard, or buddies or what ever and only some of the parts bought new.
4. As pointed out in #2 and 3, there is a LOT of work and the time spent is simply “swapped” from making the original frame work, and making the donor frame work, that is all there is to it, facts are facts. And where he thinks he will use parts the way they are but he soon sees that he can’t bolt the funky rear end into his frame that he has cleaned up and painted, this requires replacement of certain parts. Then he finds that the rear doesn’t have the gearing he wanted and he needs another one anyway, etc.
The frame “swaps” and clips that are done by talented skilled craftsmen do work, heck yes they work. Can they be done by the first timer, yes, a first timer that is well versed in fab with a measuring tape and LOTS of questions and study, heck yes. But his dreams and fantasies of fast and cheap and easy are a pipe dream. The experienced builder can do it pretty quick and even he is honest with himself will say that it takes longer. But if the desire for a car that handles and drives like a new car is what you are after, this is one say to get it. But a first timer, it will be MUCH longer to pull off a swap than upgrading what you have. But honestly, go back to #1 on the reality side, do you REALLY need to make it drive like a “new car”? Only he has that answer. If that is a MUST, then a frame swap or clip pay be the way to go.
|02-12-2012 09:37 AM|
Aftermarket IFS vs S10 chassis
|This thread has more than 15 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.|