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Best way to fix these door gaps

10K views 31 replies 6 participants last post by  tech69 
#1 ·
I'm doing my final test fitment, and most of my door gaps are pretty good, but have a tricky spot on driver's door between door and fender. Overall, the door gap is great all around, just one spot where the door sticks out farther than the fender. I'll just post pics rather than try to explain. How should I fix and where to shim?

This is an original door and original fender, so it's not like I'm fighting reproduction sheetmetal.
 

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#2 ·
And then here's some issues on the passenger's side: original fender, reproduction SKIN on the ORIGINAL door frame. As you can see, the curvature of the skin near where the mirror would mount doesn't have the same radius as the fender. Not sure how to work this...it seems difficult to make that metal move.
 

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#3 ·
Looks to me like your drivers door needs to come up in the front. On the passenger side it may be up too high, without a shot of the whole door and the rocker it's hard to say. What year is this Mustang? I am thinking about the wing window, does it get one? That fit to the A pillar is pretty critical with the window window.

But that right one also looks like it along with the fender is going to need some "massaging", you have a bit more than simple "alignment" issues there.

Brian
 
#4 ·
One at a time concentrate on the drivers side first. I agree that the front of the door needs to come up a bit but the fender needs to go down a bit also..after that it looks like the door needs to go in a little but its hard to tell if its the door or the ,mabe a little of both...something that might help is if theres any moldings that go on top of the fender and door place them on there and see how they line up...one other trick is lightly guide coat the body lines then sand one side with 400 or finer so theres a destinct line in both door and fender ,it makes lining them up much easier...your very close but I think that fender will need some filler at the top where it meets the door
 
#5 ·
Ok, so just concentrating on the driver's door right now, if the front of the door comes up, isn't this going to mess up my nice gaps along the rocker and quarter panel? I will try taking the front of the door up ever so slightly and see where this gets me first.

I can't push the fender down anymore. If I push down on the top part of the fender and force it down it flexes ever so much and bows out and then is a close fit, problem is I can't figure out a way to keep it like that. There's also some filler on the fender behind the wheel well just above the rocker area...whole area is skimmed. I'm afraid of cracking that if I were to set the fender on the ground (standing it up in the orientation it would be mounted on the car) and pushing down on it to put a little more 'crown' in the side of it.

The door can go in or out, but it moved the door only at the area where the hinges where, it did not bring that entire point of the body line in.

When the door opens that point just BARELY clears going under the fender. By barely I mean you could fit a single hair between there, but 2....no way! It actually might scrape once it gets mil build on it from epoxy sealer, base, and clear.

What if I were to try to re-bow the fender? Run a wire from a hole where it would go on the cowl, other end of the wire is where the fender would mount to the rocker (fender is off the car for this), put a lever in the middle of the wire length and twist the wire to tighten it and pull these two areas of the fender closer together? Don't know if it would hold, spring back, or crack my filler. I guess if I crack the filler I redo it...
 
#6 ·
If you need to move the fender down a little but can't because it won't go down at the bottom, shim it down. Put a shim between the fender and the rocker to allow it to go down.

Will this mess up your perfect fit at the rocker, yep, but that is all about making the "good fit" and not having a perfect fit some places and a horrible fit other places. Often it's better to have a "good" fit overall, it's robbing Peter to pay Paul and it is a regular occurrence when fitting panels to some degree.

And another thing on that door, be sure to look inside too! Look along the outer line of the door on the inside to be sure the gap is consistent for the doors rubber weather strip to work properly. I have forgotten that little tidbit to find that there was too little room for the rubber or the rubber didn't touch at all, only because I was too focused on the outside.

Brian
 
#8 ·
I don't remember on the Mustang, been a long time for me but be careful often those vent windows don't move a whole lot and you have to respect that while fitting a door. On my Gran Sport for instance, the vent windows were in the doors when I did the fitting as you are doing.

Brian
 
#9 ·
shimming it down will also suck it in. Sometimes shimming down low just isn't to line up a body line but to stretch the fender and pull it into shape. As far as the front of the door needing to go up, that depends on the rocker gap, if it's fine than leave it and use that as a last resort fix. Raising the front of the fender and shimming it down should probably do it. Once the gap is right and you can't move it anymore without getting adverse affects then MAYBE it's the area on top is just out of shape and you have to take the fender off and open it up from the top peak to the upper body line, sometimes even cutting a slice, opening it up, and tacking it while someone's applying pressure to keep it open. This should only be done if you're certain that's what it is, but it's not a rare problem. It's pretty common.
 
#10 ·
So tonight I just concentrated on the driver's fender mostly. I shimmed the bottom of the fender where it bolts to the rocker, though I don't want to suck the fender in, I actually want it to bow OUT. I just shimmed it with a cupped washer I had. Can't tell for sure how much it helped though I think it might have lowered the top of the fender some.

I tried shimming the front of the fender but this made it reeeaaally high off the fender skirt. I think I need to put a jack on the floor and use a board to push up that area of the fender skirt just a bit.

The biggest improvement I did was loosening the hinge on the door and pulling the top of the door OUT. This made the gap at the top of the door and fender line up laterally, though the fender still sits just a little bit higher than the door, but I think it's better than it was.

But I still have the problem with the point from the door body line sticking out farther than the fender body line point. If I pull the fender out to line up with it, then I get a big gap between the fender and the cowl, at least 1/4" or maybe 3/8". I'm almost ready to just live with it at this point.

Henry--where does this slice go that you speak of?

Ok, so feel free to comment more on this door, otherwise we can focus on the passenger side door now, I think it's going to be more involved.

Brian, I still need to check the insides and the vent windows. never got around to that tonight. I get some serious ADD in the shop....work on fender...look for hood hinge....go check on the horses...decide to check hay field...decide to pull weeds in field...oh look there's an apple tree!...let's move the horses to another pasture...oh, the fender!
 
#11 ·
My point with shimming it down was to move the top down as well, lowering the rear of the fender. If you only try to lower it and don't bring the bottom lower with a shim when you tighten up the bottom it will suck back up bowing out the fender. That is why I was saying lower it, by shimming at the bottom.

Brian
 
#12 ·
I shimmed at the bottom. But that also flattens the fender rather than bowing it out. I'm not following what you're saying. The fender needs to be bowed to line up with the door better, while at the same time needs to be lowered as well, the latter of which is accomplished by the shim.
 
#13 ·
It may not need to be bowed more, move it down then out at the bottom a little. This is from looking at your photos, I may be off but it looks like just going down is going to get you closer. Remember, the fender and door below the body line are coming in, right? The body line is as far out as they go, so as the fender goes down, below the body line it will be going OUT as well, because the line isn't perfectly vertical.

Brian
 
#14 · (Edited)
It's difficult to do this when you only can work from pics and not see it in real life, but if you go back to the second picture I originally posted, that's looking straight down from the top of the fender. You can see how the door body line corner sticks out farther than the fender, or wouldn't be flush if you laid a straight edge across the two panels. While I have been able to get all other parts of the two panels relatively close, this phenomenon in the picture still persists.

In other words, when all the other edges of the two panels are relatively aligned, that damn corner wants to stick out on its own.
 
#15 ·
Oh yeah, sorry, then you want to do a little of both, or simply slide the fender down from the top with the bottom loose, then tighten up the bottom and it will bow the fender out.

Brian
 
#17 ·
As Henry pointed out another thing you may need to do, remember, aligning panels like these is a dance. Sometimes it's a friggin broadway play with a stage covered with dancers, there is no one way and there are no easy steps, dancers have to work together to make it all work.

Brian

 
#19 · (Edited)
one thing you should remember is to mount and adjust the fenders (all panels) BEFORE doing any body work and all this could have been avoided..
That wont help you now though. heres an example of what I was saying earlier about test fitting the moldings ....That little ear at the top of the fender could have gotten bent from standing the fender up against a wall so dont take for granted that just because it fit before it should fit now ...also dont get all tunnel vissioned on the fenders without the hood on all three have to be done as a unit..otherwise you could spend all day trying to adjust a fender bending this and cutting that just to find out it was all for nothing because the hood wont fit and the actual problem was something simple.... the moldings are also important in fitting the sheetmetal as this guy found out...
When I adjust the sheet metal its much easier to do it without the inner skirts then the rad support has to be nice and loose then I'll bolt on fender (loosely) with just a couple bolts ,the header that connects the two fenders at the front then the other fender....if everything is only lightly snugged down or even loose you should be able to slide the whole nose from side to side as a unit..and up and down by lifting the support lifting the support will change the gaps at the bottom of the fender and door widening them ,I think a lot ofyou problem is right there its hard to tell from a pic but I think you have to lift that support a little two....but nevermind that for now...
OK so you have the fenders and header bolted together and bolted to the support, now what you want to do is locate the bolt holes at the top of the cowl that the fender mounts to and cross measure both bolt holes with the fender mount holes on the support to make it square do thie by sliding the support one way or the other.....Then look at the bottom fender to door gaps ,if they are tight the support needs to go up....Then the hood goes on ,concentrate on the hood to header gap being right first because you know the header is square so the hood will be square when that gap is right....THEN adjust the fender to hood gaps by pushing the fenders in or out....once you do all this first THEN you can get perfection out of the gaps ....other wise your chasing your tail ,everytime you get one thing perfect you throw something else out of wack...
So My best advise is start at the beginning if you crack the bondo ,well thats a tough,hard lesson to learn but one you will never make again It all should have been assembled after it was epoxied and before any filler was applied..
Then
 

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#23 ·
The ONLY adjustment I can truly make here is with the fender and/or door. This is a 67 Mustang and the inner fender skirts and radiator support are NOT adjustable; they are all welded in place. The only thing I can adjust is how the fender sits on them.

Several problems I'm up against that have come up between Mike and Brian (and Brian hit the nail on the heady, I'll explain later)...I started this car in 2009. A lot of time has gone by since then and now, and I started out knowing nothing and being brand new at it. Fast forward to now I've learned a lot and have developed more of a touch for all these things. But now it's like I'm trying to finish a car that an 'amateur' started.

Another problem--the farther I get, things that I used to let slide I'm now not happy with. I'm getting picker with some things.

And to touch on what Brian said--he nailed it: I would put the panels on the car (this was like 3 years ago) and be like, 'yeah, it's pretty close, and they're original panels so if they fit originally they'll fit again. I'm sure I'll be able to get it just perfect when I'm actually trying.' :D

WELL WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT GOES!

So thus the reason I'm doing all this now, while I still can.

I'm going to roll this fender if I can figure out a clever way, if I crack the filler, I crack it. When I originally applied that filler I bet it took me a week to get it right. It would only take me about 2 hours to have it right if I were to do it again today. Not to mention I'm using a lot better filler now than I started out using.
 
#20 ·
Very good point Mike, if it breaks it breaks. And really, a large flexing panel like that isn't going to break filler, not unless it was applied CRAZY thick like a half inch or something. Normal filler repairs flex quite a bit without breaking.
It is of course a little late to be suggesting to trail fit before hand and I forgot all about it, good catch. It can't be said enough. Here's a "Basics" on the subject.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/basics-basics-trial-fitting-parts-56583.html


And one on fitting panels, maybe something can be found in here to help you too Lizer.

Panel Alignment - Autobodystore

But now, as Mike said, if something has to be re-done, it has to be re-done, we have all been there sadly to say.

Brian
 
#21 ·
I read a little of the trail fitting parts and I hit this line "Trial fitting is not holding the part up and saying, “yep it fits”

This really holds so true, I have seen a bodyman who I worked with do just this, he "made" the part fit instead of making the part not fit when trial fitting, if this makes any sense at all.

In other words if you want to see no flaws, you don't. But you sure as hell will during final assembly!

I would watch him (and after I pointed it out he STILL did it) where he would hold the tram gauge across an engine compartment and literally PUSH the pointer into the hole he was measuring too! :pain:

While if I was measuring the same engine compartment to see if it was square I would WANT to find if it's bad and SEE that the pointer was off by three mm and this would HELP me in getting the thing square. He would force the pointer in to the hole showing him what he WANTED to see, perfection. But then when final assembly came and the hood and lights didn't fit, he didn't understand why!

Brian
 
#22 ·
Lizer,

the least important panel being the cowl panel, but for this, yeah it's important. What I'm saying is that if everything is right and you closely look at the fender you'll easily see if it needs to be rolled. you can just look at it and tell, but this is after you've tried everything else. The areas you'll need to cut are the same way. You first try to roll it and check fit, after trying a few clever things to do that and it doesn't work, then you cut it and weld it, and the area doesn't always necessarily have a thin area, but most times it does, and a lot of times it cracks there as well.
 
#27 ·
I just saw this thread and was going to bring up the bracket at the center of the fender bow to cowl. That will let the bow come out to match the door.

As for the fender sitting too high at the door, loosen the center bracket, leave the bottom bolts tight, grab a piece of 2x4 and PUSH the high spot down. There is usually enough give for the metal to bend slightly and that's all you need.

But really, you need to install the vent to get the door where it belongs BEFORE aligning the fender to the door. I just went thru all this on a '65 Mustang and it's critical to align the door/vent first.
 
#30 ·
I'm rather happy with myself right now...got the other door fixed in a matter of about 10 min. I beat it into submission and now it lines up great. Just need to work on the gap, am probably going to have to grind a little bit off the edge of the door skin in that top corner because there's a lot of material that doesn't need to be there. This is a reproduction door skin to the original fender. I don't know why it is, but my original quarter extensions line up better on my reproduction quarter instead of the original quarter as well.

I'm going to have to do a little more tapping on the curved part of that door skin to reshape it so I make more of a transition to where I just knocked it down. Using a round dolly, gets nowhere fast doing that. Using my flat fender hammer moves metal fast but doesn't leave it looking pretty. Guess that's what filler's for?

I'm sure what happened on that skin there is as I was pounding the flange down on the back side, I probably pounded that curved area straight.
 

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#31 ·
Looks like you're getting it figured out. You have to keep in mind these cars were built on an assembly line where faster is more money, they got it close enough to open and close without rubbing or leaking and sent it on to the next guy in line. Now we restore them and everyone wants them to have (near) perfect gaps, body lines and be (near) perfectly straight. Then throw in a few mass manufactured after market pieces and the challenge really begins. Sometimes a nice selection of body hammers, dollies, and mallets, are the best adjusting tools you have. Be prepared to grind, cut, bend, weld, add and take away from every gap on the car if you want it nearly perfect. Like Martin said in a different post, take small steps, concentrate on one thing at a time and it will seem much easier and a lot less intimidating.

As someone else said, For future projects tear down, blast/strip, epoxy, then reassemble, replace any panels, then get lines and gaps right, then proceed to body work. I know that sounds like a lot of extra work, but it keeps you from going backwards and having to redo anything as you progress.

Good luck on the fit and finish, looks like you are doing a nice job of it so far.

Kelly
 
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