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Welder question

12K views 48 replies 17 participants last post by  69 widetrack 
#1 ·
Hi, I'm sure this question has been answered before, But a quick search really did not turn up any concrete answers, Atleast not for me. But my question is: What welder is best for building car frames with? I want to start out by building a go-kart to help me learn the best way to weld that is best for me. I have seen where people say TIG is best, And some say Stick/ARC is best, I'm sure it boils down to personal opinion, But I would like to know if MIG would be good and strong enough to build car frames with? I would also like to know if one that works off of a 110 socket be powerful enough, I have seen where people said only 220 is strong enough, But I live with my girlfriends grandparents for now, And I don't know if they would be too thrilled about having their garage rewired as they don't have a 220 outlet. I figured I would ask the pro's their opinion on this before I buy a welder and discover that it is not good enough. Thanks in advance for any help you could give me.
 
#2 ·
What I will give you is my personal opinion, others will have theirs. To weld on a car frame a MIG is Plenty strong enough. I wouldn't weld a car frame with a 110 MIG even though they have improved the 110 welder greatly over the years. The frames on cars are made of heavier material (especially the older full framed vehicles) than regular body panels and may require more penetration than the 110 MIG can provide. Some people may come on here and say that they have done it without any problem and that is their opinion....this is mine.

If your going to start out welding up go kart frames a 110 should be strong enough and is a great format to learn how to weld...you might want to start there. Later on you could move up to a 220 MIG and selling your 110 wouldn't be a problem, if you wanted to sell it. I still often use a 110 MIG for body panels, the metal is much thinner than the metal on a frame and the 110 gives me all the penetration that 18 to 24 gauge metal requires.

TIG welding is another matter, before you get into TIG welding, it's probably a good idea to learn how to use a MIG. The skill set for TIG is much greater than a MIG, again, people may disagree and maybe it's just that I'm more comfortable with a MIG but, TIG takes a real steady hand and you need to know how metal reacts when being welded. A MIG will provide you with much of that information before you attempt TIG welding.

I hope this helps and as I said, these are my opinions only.

Ray
 
#4 ·
there is no weldable metal on a standard vehicle over 10 gauge
110v machines are fully capable of welding 10 gauge in a single pass
i welded my whole truck frame and lots of the sheetmetal with a 110v fluxcore machine
i bought 110v for portability, i've had it on ladders and in a basket on a forklift
you can't beat fluxcore for welding outside.
i've had my lincoln weldpac 100 for 14 yrs and have never had to run out to fill an argon tank

that said... a 220v mig will be more versatile for more metals and methods
most welders have 4 to 6 heat selections and infinite wire speed
i prefer lincoln, miller and hobart, in no particular order.
but lately have heard a lot of good reviews on the eastwood brand welders

stick works well if you have an arc welder available, but i would not buy one unless you have a specific purpose, same goes for tig
welding is all about heat, puddle control and penetration.
once you master those all welding is pretty much the same
 
#7 ·
I agree with much of what your saying, however, a lot depends on what type of welder the person has, not all 110 MIG's are created equal. I've used a 110 MIG to try and weld 12 gauge, it should have handled a task as light as that....I had to bring my 110 MIG (220 wasn't available) to the site and weld the metal...it worked fine.

The other thing, and please take this in the spirit that it is meant, the OP is new to welding, to say that a 110 MIG may be able to weld any 10 gauge metal on a standard vehicle is a fairly broad statement...We don't know what type of frame he is trying to weld. Some heavier duty frames aren't 10 gauge they can run up to 3/16 of an inch whereas 10 gauge is about 1/8th inch. Is that a standard vehicle, I don't know what the OP would consider standard. That being said, an experienced welder may be able to properly bevel the edges and make this work with an efficient 110 MIG, I prefer to err, if I am, on the side of caution as we don't know exactly what the OP is intending to weld, other than go kart frames and even then, what gauge of metal is being used on those frames.

Perhaps a better question would be, how thick a piece of metal can be welded with a 110 MIG, then we would be able to refer back to different manufacturers and get the answers as to their specifications. The OP should also understand that these specifications would be with an experienced welder

Hope you understand where I'm coming from Ogre, not trying to disagree, just to further explain.

Ray
 
#6 ·
A 220v wirefeed is THEE most efficient machine for auto work.

It will handle anything from thin shettmetal with .024 MIG wire and up and more than 1/2" with multiple passes

I wrote this on another forum in the welding and fabrication section,it pretty much gets to the point of facts,not myths....


As was already said,a 110v machine will push it to it's limits and borderline that "maybe" it'll work and hold welding 1/4" without a preheat.

once you start gettin into alot fab work on the Jeep you'll runnin into alot heavier things to weld than a 110v machine is designed for..heavy suspension parts,roll cages,heavy bumpers and rock gards,motor mounts if swapping out for more power..etc etc.

A 220v machine is just so much more versatile and suitable for Jeep mods and repairs than a 110v,there wont be anything on a Jeep your working that a 220v can;t handle without question,from thin sheetmetal to heavy axle tubes and chunks.

Now a days there really isn't that much of a price difference in my opinion between a 110v vs 220v to justify going with a 110v unless 110v power is your only option,but that would be a rare occasion unless you live in an apartment and have no 220v dryer plug.

You'll most likely hear/see some people say"i welded my whole rig up with a 110v 140 amp machine and its held up to the worst abuse in the world!"...that's all cool and i'm glad it held up,but it still doesn't hide the fact that a 110v machine was put to it's limits and overworked at max settings to do the job,plus it doesn't hide the fact that it may of made a nice looking weld but the fact is it still aint hot enough to do a confident sufficeint weld on thicker materials.

The manufacturers recommend the maximum thickness of steel for the machine not for the fact it can't get a complete fusion in every pass,but for the fact it isn't hot enough of a machine to sufficeintly penetrate that thickness.this is where most don't understand...i could weld up a 1" thick plate with a 110v and cut it and it'll show a solid complete fused weld,,but do a bend test on it and see what happens because it didn't penetrate because of the heat sink the bigger steel caused and sucked the heat from the weld..

Bottom line is..when picking a weld machine for a purpose..the general rule of thumb is to purchase one that is designed to handle more than what you ever plan to use it for,for the fact you won't have to geuss if it will hold,plus you won't be working the machine at it's limits and seriously shortening the life span of the machine.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I started off 25 years ago with a 110V Lincoln Mig machine with shielding capability. I used it for sheet metal welding and tack welding frame components, then took the frame to a shop and had a qualified welder use a 220V machine to weld the component I tack welded.

Later, about 20 years later, I bought an ESAB 220V Multimaster that does tig / mig and stick. I kept my Lincoln 110V though and made a bracket to place it above the ESAB. This allows me to switch between welding on plate gauge steel vs. sheet metal without changing liners and rollers.

 
#9 ·
Thank you all so much for your answers, You all have been a very big help. As far as the car frames, I would like to get as sturdy as possible, Without being too much. As for go-karts, Again the same answer, But I probably want it to be a bit thicker thank normal just to be on the safe side and to be able to hold me(I am 265Lbs.). I will probably get a 140 MIG welder first, Then make a few go-karts and sell them and then get a bigger 220 welder with the profit I make on the go-karts. I plan on making "Big Boy" go-karts, Something with some power that is fun to drive, Not some 3HP Kiddy-Kart. Do you think a 140 MIG would be able to weld a go-kart frame strong enough to hold up to the stress and abuse a 8-15HP motor and a slightly overweight rider would put it under, lol?
 
#10 ·
The welds your planning to make with your new welder will only be as good as your skill set. First of all, decide what gauge or thickness of metal you require for your frame. After you get your welder, purchase some metal, be it scrap or whatever and practice, practice practice. A 110V MIG would be able to give you all the strength you need for a person of your size and a the HP that the engine puts out. You need to learn the art of welding more so than worrying about the welder, in the case of Go Karts anyway.

I have seen people try and weld thin metal with a 220V welder and the weld failed, why, because the person didn't know how. I'm not trying to be critical, I'm trying to give you the facts.

So, to answer your question if a 110 MIG could handle the job that you now have it intended for using the proper materials, the answer is Yes, the question of can you obtain the skills to use the welder so that it will hold the capacities that you want it to, the answer is yes as well. But learn how by practicing before you build a Kart that's for sale.

Hope this helps.

Ray
 
#11 · (Edited)
More welder info

One thing no one has mentioned is duty cycle. How long can you weld at a particular amp setting before you overload or damage the welders internal parts, to weld a car frame at higher amp settings a 110 V welder is probably at only 30 % . My lincoln 255 square wave does Tig, ac and Dc and arc and can weld at 200 amps all day long..at a 30 % duty, The manufacturere recommends that you only weld for 3 minutes out of every 10 without damaging the machine. sooner or later you probably want one of every kind. A stick welder with 6011 AC (farmer rod) works when repairing painted or rusty farm machinery. You can soak 6011 AC rod in water then turn up the amps and "cut" burn metal with the heat and poke method. Tig welding requires more skill and manual dexterity, contaminate the tig electroda and you have to resharpen and mabe grind out part of your weld. If you use a 110 V mig you will want to be sure to bevel and Gap your weld joints to get proper penetration. I keep a box of horse shoe nails in the drawer, they are miniture wedges, make a tack , check alignment and if needed a nail to widen the gap before the next tack , as mentioned earler with a 110 V with a gas torch, make multiple passes for thicker material. Flux core leaves a coating of slag that should be removed before another pass to get a good strong weld. .
 
#12 ·
Welder

I have a 135 Lincoln that I use flux core in. Always has done a fine job with good penetration. I took a welding course a few years back and the instructor had a Lincoln 100 for his home welder, it's all in ability. Learn right, weld right. I'd take a course at a local high school to get the basics.
 
#13 ·
The duty cycle on 110 MIGS is usually 20%, Atleast all the ones I have seen under $500. And Ray, I understand that I need to practice alot before I start building go-karts, I'm not going to just get a welder and build a go-kart immediately and then sell it, I am not going to endanger someones life like that by having inferior welds that could break. You have been a big help Ray, And I thank you for that. It is nice to see a forum where someone can come and ask a question and not get flamed for it. I have had a little welding experience before, My grandfather has a Lincoln 225 stick welder that he taught me how to use, My welds were not the prettiest, But after beating on it with a sledge hammer a couple times, It never came apart. But again thank you all for your help, It is very much appreciated.
 
#15 ·
Happy to help when I can.

It sounds like you have the right attitude and that in some ways is as important as the equipment your using. This is a great forum, I've learned an immense amount and just hope I can give back.

Now, if your planning on painting these Go Karts, I'd be more than happy to give you any advice I can.

Best wishes

Ray
 
#14 ·
Don't waste your money on a 110 machine.. You will be sorry down the line and wish you bought a 220... Spend the money one time..And one time only... It's much easier to learn on a 220 then a 110.... You couldn't give me a 110...To me they are good for nothing...Miller or lincoln is your better choice of machines out there..Good luck with what ever you go with..;)
 
#16 ·
I would love to paint my karts Ray, But I am not a very good painter though, And I have no paint equipment at all. And New Interiors, I would love to get a 220 but as I said, My girlfriends grandparents don't have a 220 in their garage and I don't think they would be too keen on getting it rewired. I was looking at the Hobart Handler 210MVP and it uses BOTH 115 and 230, So I could switch between them if I could get her grandparents to consider getting the plug in the garage. Would that be a good welder to use for everything, Or would it still not be the same as a dedicated 220 welder? Here is a link: FREE SHIPPING — Hobart Handler 210MVP (Multi-Voltage Plug) 115V/230V Flux Cored/MIG Welder — 140/210 Amp Output, Model# 500553 | Wirefeed Welders| Northern Tool + Equipment
 
#19 ·
That should work fine for you.. The good thing is you can upgrade to the spool gun for Alum... If you can't buy a spool gun for any machine to upgrade later,, Pass on it...That gun works great for welding ALUM.... What happens with a reg welder trying to weld ALUM.. Is you have to feed that very small and soft ALUM wire through a 10 foot wipe and it will bird nest every time...The spool gun you only feeding it about 6''... Keep that in mine when your looking...;)
 
#18 ·
extension cord ?

In the 50"s my step dad bought a 220 ac welder so my brother and I could repair our farm machinery. Before we could get the blacksmith shop on the ranch rewired, I made up a heavy duty extension cord, unpluged the electric stove and had to run it out the folks bedroom window, we didn't have to repair much machinery but used it a lot when building an Olds powered 36 chevy coupe, an olds drive train in a 31 chrysler roadster, a couple T buckets .
 
#20 ·
Yeah, I saw that about the spool gun aswell. Northern also has a 140 welder that can use the gun aswell, It has some pretty positive reviews about it and is only $350. It is very tempting, But after looking at the Hobart version of it for $498, I like the Hobart one better. It has an Industrial Cast Aluminum feeding mechanism and the ground clamp looks alot better/stronger, It does not look like a cheap jumper cable clamp like the others. My Budget is really no more than $500, But I might try to sell one of my guns to get the Hobart 210MVP. Will the 210MVP be good for welding car frames aswell?
 
#21 ·
Sure the 210 Hobart is a hell of a welder, before you buy though you might look at your local paper and Craigslist, I've seen some pretty good deals on 220 v mig outfits. Just make sure you take someone with you .....if possible that knows welders. I bought a Hobart 187 a couple of yrs. ago on sale from Tractor supply for $585, with the argon tank this thing will weld just about anything I need. Do a lot of shopping before you pull the trigger......
 

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#22 ·
I have been looking at Craigslist, Really nothing around me but stick welders and generator/welder combo's. I've seen a guy trying to sell a Lincoln 225-s For $100 MORE than what it costs new... And I don't really trust eBay either, Too many bad experiences there.
 
#23 ·
Well, I bought a welder today.... Not quite the one I wanted though, It's a Lincoln Pro-Core 125. I wanted to get a higher-end model, But due to a "Financial Situation" *Cough-girlfriend complaining-Cough*... So I stopped by Lowes and they had it on sale for $377 and it was the best that was priced "In the budget". Would I be able to do go-karts with this still? Here is a link to it: Shop Lincoln Electric 120-Volt Flux-Cored Wire Feed Welder at Lowes.com
 
#24 ·
I am not an experienced welder, so I took a class and they showed us how to use various welders. My input is this:

- In my case it took a lot longer to learn how to use a stick welder, maybe because I was welding thicker material (I practiced with 1/2"). Since I did not have good technique it also required quite a bit of grinding to clean the welds when I was done. It would take me quite a while to get good with a stick welder.
- MIG (large Miller with gas) took a short while to learn technique, but once you got the settings right it was the easiest welder to use for anything up to about 1/4". I tried various material gauges and was able to get quite consistent results. With a little practice I also had a fairly clean weld when I got done. Thicker materials took more juice, but welding was not that hard.
- I also tried using an oxy-acetylene torch to cut off metal and to make some minor repairs, and I was surprised that it was fairly easy to get the technique. My repair practice was welding some braces back on a cattle feeder, so it wasn't precision work, but the torch worked well.

The welder from Lowes may be a good value when its on sale, but I think I'd hold out for a small MIG welder. If you are building go-carts you are going to be doing quite a few welds of tubing at varying angles. I think a small MIG would be much easier to work with.

Bruce
 
#25 ·
So, Do you think I should take the welder back? I have not even opened it yet. I could try to get another higher-end model, But I would be sleeping on the couch for a week, lol. I would like to get one with MIG possibilities, But I would not be able to use it for awhile though, The only other model with MIG capabilities that is in my price range as of now, Is the Northern Tool MIG 140I, It is $350 and can be converted to use MIG gas and also a Spool Gun to weld aluminum. But I don't know if it is a good welder or not, The reviews are good, But it is not a name brand though so I don't know if it is good quality or cheap.
 
#26 ·
Before I saw that you already bought one, I was going to suggest looking into dual-voltage models - Miller makes one, model 211 if I remember correctly, that can be run as a 110v, and with a plug they provide use it for 220v. It's more money that what you have spent so it may be out of your preferred range.
Eastwood also has a line of MIGs that are very reasonable and I've been told they use the same consumables as Miller/Hobart.
 
#27 ·
I'am lucky

The last 4 pieces of welding equipment I found used on Craigslist or KSL classified for 20-35% of the new cost and I told the the seller to have them hooked up and running when I got there. And my wife always asks is that really what you want or should I look for a new one. But we have businesses that we use our equipment at, Farming, construction, rental property, products for fish bait. the flip side is I don't have much Hobby time.
 
#28 ·
I am going to take back the Lincoln I just bought, I am going to save up some money for a bit and get a bigger/better one. Does anybody have any suggestions on one to get, Maybe around $1,200? It would have to be a pretty decent one, I would need it to build a car frame aswell as the body panels too. How hard is it to install a 220 plug and maybe upgrade the breaker to 30 amps? Could I do this myself, Or would it be best left to a pro? Again thanks for all your help guys.
 
#33 ·
In this case i would go with the Hobart Handler 210 MVP..nevermind the Spool gun for aluminum for now...they are an extra 200.00 and your a fresh beginner.

You can buy them for 800.00-900.00

The MVP will be capable of running off of 110 or 220v

It is one of the highest amp portable machines.Miller has a 211 but the price difference is pretty considerable.

Hobarts are well underestimated by most people..they are top of the line machines as far as durability and usability...

You said in the 1200.00 range for spending,No one has mentioned that you'll also need to include in your funds a Grinder,wheels for it like grind rocks,sanding wheels,wire wheels..etc...
You will also need gloves,safety glasses,welding jacket/shirt,chipping hammer,ear plugs.

One of your biggest investment besides the welder will be a good welding helmet..preferably an auto,especialy for a beginner,auto's are the way to go anymore,they've come a long way.
I use a Speedglas 100v and a 9002v i've had for wuite a while.i used to have a Jackson NexGen and sold it after i got the new Jackson W-60 TruSight lens..But i do this for a living,35 years worth so far,so no need to go out and buy a 200.00-500.00 lens,there is pelnty of good quality lens out there now for 100.00 or less,when you decide to start shopping for one,PM me and i'll point you in the right direction for good quality lower priced helmets.

A few things i can save you money on is gloves,maybe a welding jacket {depending on your sixze..most of them are x-xxx large i have,but I like the extra arm length in them)and some earplugs and a few pairs of clear and dark safety glasses,i have boxes of that stuff we get for free on jobs..you just pay the shipping....
 
#29 ·
If you don't know how to open up the breaker box and put in a new breaker, it's best left to a pro
You could use a marine 30/50A reverse Y adapter which takes 2 30a circuits and combines them into a 50A 220v circuit. The caveat is you need 2 seperate circuits ( run off different breakers ) and the adapter costs about $400..

That said, if go karts are what your planning to build. A 110v Arc welder will do well. use 6013 3/32" rod and it makes a versatile structural welder. A 110V arc could also do structural welding to a car frame.. I personally use an old Lincoln Tombstone for structural welds. It's a 220V system, but only costs like $225 new and the one I use is 40 years old
 
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