Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board - Reply to Topic -- Hot Rod Forum

Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Body - Exterior> Martin Senour Tech Sheets?
User Name
lost password?   |   register now

Thread: Martin Senour Tech Sheets? Reply to Thread
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Please select your insurance company (Optional)


Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.

Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
03-12-2011 09:09 PM
Underground Hey check the date in the left hand corner. This was posted in 2004!
03-12-2011 08:25 PM
dupnt guy
high solids clears

Originally Posted by ChrisMiddleron
Well I was using the high solids cc5000 and cant seem to get it to lay good without bad orange-peel
when spraying high solids clears the gun setup will need to be changed. what are you using for a fluid tip? what type of gun? without the imformation I can guide in the right direction. use a 1.4 fluid tip increase the air pressure to 28 psi for clear. Increase your gun speed when using this clear. Use your gun a little closer to the panel. This should help.
04-24-2005 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by Randy Ferguson
Now the deal about the ladies. They pay more attention to detail and they don't have our male ego!! I once heard an old WWII vet, who was a P-47 mechanic talk about how smooth those girls used to land those planes when they were delivered. That was his reasoning for them being smoother pilots than the men.

My mother was a WW II delivery pilot and she was quite sure that women were better pilots than men. My dad, who started in the biplane days, never argued with her about it either......
07-20-2004 08:50 AM
MARTINSR I totally agree with you on most everything you say, the reps job is selling, that is why I got out. I have to tell you, if you asked if I was a good rep, you would get two different answers, depending on who you asked. If you asked my regional manager he would say "he was ok" because I didn't change over enough shops and didn't raise the numbers as much as they want. If you asked one of my old customers, they would say I was great because I helped them. I have to tell you, "Just salesmen" is a bad attitude to have. First off, YOU are a salesman. We all are, if you weren't we would still be a virgin We wouldn't have a job because we couldn't sell ourselves during an intervue, we are ALL salesmen. Second, like I said the typical painter, mechanic, carpender, and yes even doctor wouldn't know crap after serving his first few years of education if not for the salesman walking in with the latest products! Honestly, you and I would still be shooting Lacquer primers and paints! I don't know how old you are but when I started it was Lacquer and 600 was the finest paper for rubbing. Well, if it weren't for that PPG paint rep (his name was Joe) who came in to "sell" use things back at the Early Ford V8 shop in 1978 I would would never have known there was "Ultra fine" sand paper to cut and buff with. I would have never tried Deltron (I still remember the smell) and if it weren't for that DuPont rep I would have never seen 500S (as I remember is the number) the first urethane clear for bc/cc DuPont had to apply over your lacquer base. I also would never have seen a robotic measuring system like I use at work, how would I have see it? You would have to go to trade shows to see them, oh wait, there would be those bastard salesmen there too!!

No kidding, salesmen most times don't have hands on experiance you do in the "field" but you would be amazed at what you learn by observing. I can tell you would LOVE doing what I did as a rep. I am convinced, I learned more in those five years as a rep then I would have 20 years painting everyday. In fact, I (I am talking personally, I have no idea how someone else would react) I learned MANY things that I could never have learned in the shop. I regularly visited hundreds of painters, seen THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of projects in the works or finished and aged. I have seen people do the damnest things you could ever imagine with these products and expect them to work, and expect me to find out what went wrong (which I always did, that was my joy). There is NO way, NO way I could have seen all that in a shop. I am not the best painter, I saw some of those guys, I saw guys that we should bow at thier feet. That is another thing I learned, I was humbled by some of the painters I met.

I also learned that ANY brand will perform well. That rep that came in to show you with the "Tech/TRAILER" that M-S was "better" than PPG, if that is really what he was doing he was a "sap". It is not better, on the same note, I don't think I can honestly say PPG is "better" than S-W (which is what M-S is). If you were to ask me what is the best brand between DuPont, S-W, and PPG I would have to lean towards PPG. But as I said, I saw them ALL perform well. I saw painters who would NEVER switch from any one of them because they had had troubles with all the rest.

No, I didn't try to show anyone M-S was "better". I showed them that the store I was representing in that town could service them better, or I showed them a product that was better than what they were using. Yes, DuPont or PPG or whom ever they were using had a product similar to what I was selling, but their rep wasnt' there helping them were they? I was, so I switched them over from priming a loging trailer with lacquer primer, sanding it and painting with IMRON to using an etch primer then epoxy then a urehtane top coat with no sanding in between, saving them many many hours of labor and ending up with a better product. THAT is selling, HELPING the shop with a better way to do something. The DuPont rep could have done the same thing if he where there to do it.

Doing stuff like that and trouble shooting was the reason I kept it up for five years. I just ran into my regional manager where I work (we use S-W here) and I told him how glad I was to have had the opertunity to be a paint rep. I learned more than I would have ever in the path I was going.

As I said, I am not saying you couldn't learn as much in the shop, I am saying that is how I feel that I have learned best.
07-19-2004 09:23 PM
Randy Ferguson MARTINSR,
You opened up your own can!! The absolute best paint rep I ever met (I never ask for their help, by the way, as I want to learn to fix my own problems) was a former painter. He was only a rep with PPG for about 3 years and told me he had to get out of it, because the reps he was surrounded with were nothing more than salesmen, plain and simple. The last rep we had was a former boat salesman and had absolutely no prior experience with automotive paints. After inquiring about a job as a paint rep myself, (thinking it would be cool to go into shop and help guys work through their problems) I was told by several reps that they seldom ever step into a booth with the painter. Normally a short visit or a phone call was all that they could do. Their answer to me was that the painter is supposed to be the guy knowing what is going on, and that their job was to get shops switched from their present product to PPG. This is isn't just a PPG deal, either as I've spoken with DuPont reps who back this story up on their side too. In fact, I spoke with one Martin-Senour rep who told me the same thing. I worked with him for a solid week while he tried to convince me that M-S was better than PPG. Is it really common for you guys to bring a trailer and set up shop for a week, giving the product away to make a sale??? This guy did. What a waste of a week for that poor sap. This is not intended as a slam on you, but I hate M-S paint. I tried it off and on through the years and have had nothing but bad experiences with it.
Anywho, not sayin' all paint reps are bad, or don't know much about what they should, but I have run into more glorified counter boys than well educated tech reps.
From what little I've seen thus far of your postings, you are more knowledgeable than the majority of them.


A couple things I failed to add.
You're right, most painters are hard headed suckers that think they have this crap all figured out. I've known some that shouldn't be allowed near and paint gun. Some just don't care anymore and a large number of them are only working to but their next case of beer.

Now the deal about the ladies. They pay more attention to detail and they don't have our male ego!! I once heard an old WWII vet, who was a P-47 mechanic talk about how smooth those girls used to land those planes when they were delivered. That was his reasoning for them being smoother pilots than the men.

07-19-2004 06:54 PM
MARTINSR You want brutal honesty? Most painters don't know much better than the counter guys. It's the blind leading the blind.

Most guys just don't want to learn, they think they know everything because they do it every day. They don't know that they are doing WRONG every day. I know this because I was one of them. I dealt with hundreds over the years and it was a struggle. I had the counter people you guys are talking about selling the wrong product to painters that didn't know any better!

I had the counter guys do things like sell a guy waterborne INDUSTRIAL primer to a body shop that couldn't figure out how to spray it to save thier lives. It was the wrong product, but they couldn't even get close. Then I had the counter guy that told a shop owner/painter that the epoxy hardener would work in his acrylic enamel and he used it!!!

That was the biggest headache as a rep, dealing with that stuff. The shops and stores that took it seriously by going to tech school and LISTENING to me were a joy. I loved doing business with them, in fact "chat" with a few of them on line nearly everyday three years later. The painters who told me "You don't know crap because you are a rep", they were a PAIN and caused me nothing but trouble.

There is a LOT to be learned in this business, most people just don't want to give it the attention needed to actually help them.
Help them sell it, or help them use it.

This is why I like helping the newbes on forums such as this, they actually listen. I sware, I have taught a lot of classes or clinics on using these products. The people who new the least are the ones that cared the most. I found women to be the most enthusiastic to learn. Nothing is worse than telling someone what they are doing wrong only to have them say "what do do you know, you aren't working in the real world"? All the while you stand there and watch them mix retarder with speed additive and mix it 4:1 instead of 3:1 because Sherwin Williams is wrong.
No, give me newbes anyday.
07-19-2004 06:37 PM
BarryK Randy,
This really got me thinking, what you said. You hit it right on!

I deal with a couple hundred jobbers and maybe three dozen
are really good techs that can isolate a problem.
The majority can get through the day if all goes well.

As I think about it the jobbers that carry multi brands of paint seem to be the sharpest? If you think about it a platinum jobber is more brain washed to the platinum story. One thing I have herd the most is I'm not letting someone else tell me how to run my business so goodbye platinum and hello new line.

If I really think about it some of the very best I deal with are the wagon jobbers, its hard work but they do it for the love and not having to deal with help issues and they tend to not like setting in the store.

07-19-2004 05:28 PM
Randy Ferguson Guy's,
I've been dealing with these counter guys for years and here's what I conclude. Speaking with these guys about painting is like walking into a McDonald's and asking to talk to the guy frying the burgers. When he walks up the the counter, you tell him you own a couple head of beef and one is now ready to butcher. You then proceed by telling him you've never done this before and you would like some advice. You actually think he's gonna be able to help? I mean, afterall, he is a professional beef handler, correct? So why wouldn't he know how to properly butcher a cow? Give me a break!!!
I deal with a PPG Platinum Distributer, who sells nothing but automotive paints and auto body supplies. Even there I have to ask for a specific individual when I call to get a halfway intellegent answer on anything. Some people just have no interest in what they do, so why should they further their education? I believe that's how they think!
When I take an interest in something, I become consumed by it. Passionate about it, if you will, so this way of thinking just eludes me. Either you love it, or get out of it, is my opinion!
As for the guys working the counter at most stores involving automotive paint, in my experience, are there only to receive a check at the end of the week and have no idea which end's up.

07-19-2004 08:45 AM
BarryK If you learn what you need and walk in there to buy it, you can get some good products. And it may be the place to get them, depending on what else you have available to you. If you have to drive fifty miles to the nearest DuPont jobber, that NAPA store could be the better choice. [/B][/QUOTE]

"Personally speaking"
I would drive a 100 miles before I bought ANY automotive paint from an auto parts store!
Not only because they probably don't know what they're talking about but chances are inventory is old and not turned good so now we have a whole bunch of other problems!
07-19-2004 08:21 AM
MARTINSR "Just sales people" I have to tell you, "sales people" have a lot to offer, you just have to know who to trust. The guy at the counter at a NAPA store, most don't have much. I know, dealing with those very guys was by business for five years of my life. Some took it seriously, they got training at the S-W tech center (M-S and S-W paint is the EXACT same product, only the label is different).

In the "old days" when the parts store was the only place you bought paint, and the paint wasn't so complicated ("a gallon of lacquer primer please") it worked fine. But these days, it just takes too much education to keep up. I do have to say there were a number of these guys whe REALLY knew their stuff and could really send you out the door with the right product.

Now, just because you are going to an independent DuPont, PPG or who ever jobber, doesn't mean you will be treated any different. The ODDS are better you will, but I have ran into counter guys at those stores just as clueless as the NAPA guy.

Your NAPA guy is seriously clueless, what ever you do, don't listen to him.

If you learn what you need and walk in there to buy it, you can get some good products. And it may be the place to get them, depending on what else you have available to you. If you have to drive fifty miles to the nearest DuPont jobber, that NAPA store could be the better choice.
07-19-2004 12:57 AM
ChrisMiddleron Hey Ill go ahead and post in great detail and answer all the questions next time I spray actual paint. Ill be spraying a neighbors wire wheels probably tomorrow. I cant answer them now cause its been about a month since I did anything but sand and prime

"The number one thing you must learn is to never trust what the guy behind the counter is telling you. Why do think he's there working for barely above minimum wage, instead of working as a painter making $18-$22 an hour or more????"

You know what I was thinking to my self a while ago that same thing maybe they are just sales-people? Ill post all my projects up here from now on I promise. I hope yall will help me out then and thanks for the help now. Thanks, Chris
07-18-2004 09:55 PM
mitmaks i wouldnt buy paint from napa its crappiest one theyve got out there, id go at least with ppg's Omni
07-18-2004 03:26 PM
Randy Ferguson Chris,
The number one thing you must learn is to never trust what the guy behind the counter is telling you. Why do think he's there working for barely above minimum wage, instead of working as a painter making $18-$22 an hour or more????? These guys are lucky if they've ever touched a spray gun in their life. Base coat is better sprayed wet and the color change paints are just plain old base with a funky flake. Two feet, eh! Hmm.....
Do some research to find out how your paint gun should be adjusted as far as how to mix the viscosity of the paint and test how much runs out of the gun with the trigger pulled wide open. There is a formula for most products and you will have to adjust the gun accordingly to what the paint manufacturer recommends.
These are only guidlines as far as I'm concerned, but they do give you an idea of where to start. Sounds to me like you were spraying with too much pressure and a restricted fluid flow. Without giving us ALL the information. We can't much help you to the full potential. If you would take the time to tell us everything in great detail of how you paint in one post, we can help. Many of us have been doing this for longer than we care to admit.

Give us the particulars. I asked you all this back when you first had the problem, but I don't remember ever getting a response.

What type of gun were you using? HVLP or Conventional? include the make and model of the gun.

What is the fluid tip size?

What air cap are you using?

What was the pressure AT THE GUN?

What is the length of your air hose as well as the diameter of the air passage of your fittings?

What size and type of air compressor do you have?

How far from the panel do you consistanty spray?

How is your gun set-up? wide fan? narrow fan? Somewhere in between?

How is you gun setup for fluid control? full trigger pull? or have you got it restricted somewhat by cranking the knob in?

Are you absolutely positive the gun is thoroughly clean, with absolutely no debris lodged anywhere??

Is the vent hole of the cup clear, and free of any paint build-up?

Are you mixing your paint to exact directions by the manufacurer?

When spraying, are you moving quite fast to avoid the chance of runs, or are you taking your time and making sure the paint lays down very smooth and even?

When the base coat is applied, does it go on looking somewhat glossy, then allowed to flash dull before proceding to the next coat?

When spraying the clearcoat. Do you spray the first coat just as you would the last, or are you applying a somewhat dryer tack coat first?

Please answer these questions, as this will give us a better idea of how to properly get you on the right track. Your willingness to answer each of these questions, although you have aswered a couple of them already, will tell me just how serious you really are to learn this craft. If you don't answer them this time, I can only assume that you're not interested past a surface level and you won't be needing any further advice.

07-18-2004 02:34 PM
crazy larry
Originally posted by unstable
Randy...maybe it's your southern speak?
originally posted by BarryK
Did they move that Mason-Dixon line again?
Not sure where it is now!
when your in Massachusetts, everything is South.

Great thread, this is knowledge base material.
07-18-2004 01:46 PM
ChrisMiddleron Well I can paint and everything like that. I am still learning but 9 times out of 10 I was just doing what my paint salesmen told meto do. He said just dust on the base only use enough to get coverage. THen apply the special effect paint and dust it on lightly. He said he holds his gun about 2 feet away from the paintjob and lets this stuff just fall on. Im switching paint companies cause thus far the only problem I have been having is wrong reducer and wrong information. So far the dupont specialists out here seem to know what their talking about. Thanks, CHris
This thread has more than 15 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:41 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.