|07-04-2005 07:29 AM|
|adtkart||I have to agree that many of the repop parts don't fit worth a cr**. If you are replacing the quarter, is it also "repop"? That may be adding to the fit problems, as I haven't seen any of those fit properly either. The ones that I have seen, have a problem with the fit in the area around the "fake vents" on down. They are poorly stamped in that area. Also the amount of the misfit may not be that bad. Unless you actually measured it, it probably isn't that large, just looks like it. Although I am a fan of the Mustangs of that era, I have to admit that they had poor fits from the factory. I would avoid cutting that door, if possible, but then it is repop. Unfortunately, the glue on seals do make it hard to properly check the fit of the door in the opening. If you trust that he knows what he is doing, I would let the body man do what he feels he needs to do.|
|07-03-2005 11:12 PM|
"Way over budget" huh? Hmmmmmmm, I've never heard that before.
Listen, if he is doing a good job ALL you can do is give him some reins and let him run. Like I said, repro metal, you never know.
Let us know how it goes.
|07-03-2005 10:36 PM|
I appreciate the advise immensely. The body guy is pretty easy going, but was stumped by the amount which the door was out. Together we've been messing around with the car since March. He may not want to bend the door, ultimately that'll be up to him. Likewise I am reluctant to cut it, but most everything he has done has been fine, other than far over budget
He has the passenger side sheet metal lined up perfectly, and was the one who told me that the doors needed to be on before he welded up the quarters and finished up the welding on the front frame.
The drivers side 1/4 panel fits real nice with the rocker, and he does not want to push it out past the rocker any more.
So I'll communicate with him this week. This is the biggest remaining issue with the car body. The rest is just minor rust spots here and there, that need small patches made etc.
Maybe he does not want to bend the door, because it fits everywhere except for the bottom 2/3 of the striker side. Maybe he's afraid bending it will lose the body like and crease at the top (It does fit decently at the top.)
|07-03-2005 09:07 PM|
No, my name is Troy. My favorite nascar driver is matt Kenseth, driver of the #17 Dewalt. So thats what my screen name is for.
I am sure you guys will get it fit properly. Just be glad you aren't dealing with fiberglass parts. Worked on a hood recently and the curve of it was way off from the fenders. Cut and refiberglass time. It was sticking up in the back on one side too. Hinge was bent and also the holes for the bolts were stripped out so it wouldn't tighten down good. Carefully added a little weld in the holes and retapped, and that took care of that part of fitment. Lots of things to look at. Plus a lot of older cars the fitment wasn't perfect on parts from the factory. A '67 mustang I worked on the panel fitment wasn't perfect on. Had to mess around to get the body line on the fender down so it would match the door. Headlight buckets didn't fit to the fenders great either. Looked at a car shows wondering if it was just that car, but they were pretty much the same way. A repo trunk lid was put on the car also, but that fit pretty good. In my gallery the trunk lid looks off, but thats because the rubber stoppers weren't on yet. The owner hadn't picked them up yet.
|07-03-2005 08:11 PM|
Yeah Ken (is that your first name?) I was going to ask what kind of body man he was dealing with too. But honestly, I can't see the door and he may be right, it IS a repro after all. I have installed some pretty crappy repro parts I could see having to take the cut off wheel to the door to make it fit.
In fact, a 67 that we just did at the shop had some dii brand sheetmetal that could have been inproved with an air chisel. They were absulute garbage.
But like I said, it could be in at the top in the front causing this. I could see the door having the hinge mount nut plate in the wrong place WAY before needing the thing "narrowed"?
Ripped, if you don't have the fenders on and you havn't looked at how the door fits to the inner pinch weld, you don't know how those doors are fitting.
An excerpt from "Basics of Basics" Trial fitting parts.
If you can’t install the rubber at that time at least spend some time looking at where the rubber fits to for a proper gap. For instance, while fitting a decklid to your new quarter (or the other way around, it makes no difference) get in the trunk and close the lid. Inspect around the channel where the rubber fits. Be sure it is a uniform distance ALL the way around. You can usually find the correct distance right where the hinges are. If the panel fits correctly on the outside then that gap for the rubber is usually going to be correct. If you feel for some reason that there is damage to that area, you need to spend some time there. If you feel the car has been hit on the side piller post (if you were fitting the door) you really need insure that the door fits properly and that you KNOW what that rubber gap should be. This gap is usually a uniform distance all the way around, be sure of it. When you are doing a door, you always have the other side to check to guidance remember. When installing a quarter, rear panel, upper panel, this is very critical. You don’t want to find out later that your gap is too small, the lid won’t close properly or sticks up. You don’t want to find out the gap is too large, the rubber may not seal and the trunk leaks water. A little minor shifting of parts prior to welding could take care of it.
You want ALL gaps perfect PRIOR to welding (a little tack here or there may be needed for fitting the parts) there is NOTHING that will tell you this other than FULLY mounting the adjacent parts.
As Ken said, sometimes you need to "Rob Peter to pay Paul" when fitting parts. You may move the quarter out a hair to meet a door that is out a hair to far. I am no saying you move the quarter out a half and inch to where the door is now. You twist, move the top front out, and THEN with a little "fudging" on the quarter you get a good fit.
If you are hanging both the door and the quarter at once, this could get you into trouble fast. Put the original door back on, see how it fits to that new quarter. And while you are at it, see how it fits at the inner pinch weld as discribed in the "Basics". It isn't going to do you any good to fit that door on the outside if your inside is all screwed up.
|07-03-2005 07:25 PM|
|kenseth17||I was thinking the same thing brian, but didn't say anything. I can just imagine the body guys face if he shows up at his shop with some jig he made to align the door. I was also wondering why the body guy said cut the door. I would think you could twist the door and spot weld the quarter on, and adjust both so they line up right, even if you had to go out just a little on the quarter and twist the door in on the bottom a little. With playing around with adjustment and fitting, I am sure you can get the two to line up fairly good.|
|07-03-2005 05:03 PM|
I think you may be making this more complicated than it is. This is an everyday job for your average bodyman, you just block the door, twist it and you are done.
|07-03-2005 11:03 AM|
I came up with an idea for a simple door bending jig, overnight (I am a carpenter by trade) It should take me an hour to make, and will give a lot more leverage on the door, without having to slam/push the frame against a 2"x4" block or whatever.
I'll let you know if it works, or not
The 'welding panels' link (third link) on this page takes you to pics of out most recent progress, you can see the drivers side fender is back off again, as we're working on the door.
|07-02-2005 11:33 PM|
I have been thinking about this. First off, without knowing EXACTLY what part is wrong it is hard to say. IF it is the door and not the quarter that is wrong, then do what you can to the door. But make darn sure you are "modifying" the right part.
If you move the top of the front of the door out, it will move the bottom of the rear in. You may need to "rob Peter to pay Paul".
|07-02-2005 11:31 PM|
Thanks guys , that's a lot of great info. I am going to pass it on to the body guy.
I do remember seeing two big burly guys at a reputable local body shop, slamming the door of a mini van while blocking it up with some 2"x 4"s
It might be worth a try to see if we can make some gains
|07-02-2005 10:17 PM|
|07-02-2005 09:19 PM|
“Basics of Basics” Body panel alignment
By Brian Martin
Nothing adds to “detail” on a car more than nice fitting panels. If the car is a light color it is even more important. Those “black lines” that are the gaps between panels really look bad if they are not a consistent width. While using this guide and aligning your panels be sure that you open and close the moving ones very carefully after a change. You can loose the gap fast which will allow the panels to hit, so be careful.
I have to start with this very important point. ALWAYS have the car sitting on it’s wheels or at the very least the weight of the car should be on the axles. That being if you want it on jack stands to raise the car up and give you more access to the bolts and such, place the stands under the control arms as and rear axle. They should be out as far as possible towards the wheels. This can still cause problems on the front. Even in a little from where the tire actually holds the car up can change the amount of pressure being exerted on the car’s body. A car can be twisted or bent more than you can imagine up on jack stands when the stands are set on the frame allowing the weight to hang off the ends. This is VERY, VERY important. Of course this goes for anytime a panel is being fit, either welded or bolted on.
Hood alignment: Let’s start with raising and lowering the rear of the hood. If the car you are working on has a hinge that sits on top of the cowl, your only options are to shim or bend the hinge. Bending the hinge slightly is one way to move it. If you need to come up in the rear you can put a small block of wood or other item on the hinge, to bend it. When you close the hood down (NOT ALL THE WAY) it will get in the way of the hood closing and bend the rear or the hinge up. If you need to bend it down, the only option may be to remove it and bend it a little. You can also shim the bolts between the hood and the hinge, more on this later.
If you have a hood where the hinge mounts on the side of the fender or the side of the cowl like with an older car or truck, you want to "rotate" the hinge on the fender. Just pushing the hinge up and down will give you very little movement on the top of the hood.
This is the strange little trick that you have to remember, if you raise the back of the hood on the hinge or raise the back of the hinge on the fender the hood will go up. If you raise the "front" of the back of the hood ON THE HINGE or the hinge to the fender it will go down. What you have to remember is you are working with a pivot point in the hinge, not a stationary part.
If you loosen the FRONT bolt on the hood (where it bolts to the hinge) and put a shim, or washer between the hood and hinge, this will LOWER the hood on that side. If you put that same washer under the rear bolt it will RAISE the rear of the hood on that side.
So, if you loosen the bolts from the hinge to fender and close the hood, the hinge will rotate on down in the front right? This will raise the REAR of the hood like putting a shim in the back bolt between the hinge and hood!
What you need to do to lower the back the hood is to loosen the bolts (only slightly) and PUSH UP on the front of the hood. This rotates the hinges back, thus raising the front of the hinge and lowering the hood in the back.
If the hinges are warn out it won’t change how high the hood sits when the wear, not by more than a fraction of an inch. And I have never seen a car with these style hinges that you couldn't put the hood a half inch LOWER than the fenders if you wanted to. The adjustment is HUGE on these cars. That is one of the things that is easy to do on them is align panels.
I recommend you remove the striker or latch from the hood so that you can move it up and down without worrying about the latch grabbing the hood. After you have aligned the hood, take a piece of dumb-dumb or clay or something similar and put it on the latch. This way you can see exactly where it hits when you do install the latch. You bring the hood down till you just tap this dumb-dumb but DON'T LATCH IT. Just so the hood makes an indentation in the clay/dumb-dumb. This tells you where you have to move the latch.
I do this at work everyday, by myself so if you can't get help this is the trick. Always leave one bolt on the hinge tight. If you want to rotate it back, leave the front bolt tight. If you want to rotate it forward, leave the rear bolt tight. When you move the hood forward or back on the hinge, leave the bolts snug enough that you have to tap on the edge of the hood to get it to move. Or if it needs to go back, leave the bolts a little snug, and wiggle the hood up and down and the weight of the hood will make it slide down. Remember it only needs a 1/16" or so to make a 3/16" or more change at the front. To pull the hood forward on the hinge loosen them so they are still a little snug so you have to pull up on the back of the hood to make it slide that little bit. If you loosen it up so it moves anywhere you want it, YOU WILL NEVER KNOW HOW MUCH YOU MOVED IT AND YOU WILL MOVE IT TOO MUCH, GUARANTEED.
Get the hood laying flat first, then move the hood forward or back on each side to make the hood fit the hole between the fenders. If the gap is large on the front right and small on the front left, then the hood needs to me moved back on the right side. As you move the hood back on a side it will close up the gap in the front of that side and open it at the rear of that side.
You may need to move fenders too. Just do each change slowly, move it VERY LITTLE. Look at the bolt and washer as you move the panel, you will see where the washer used to be, the amount is much easier to control if you watch the washer movement.
If you need to move the hood up or down at the front, you have a few ways to do it. First, on each side there are the “bumpers”. The hood bumpers are located at each front corner and look like a bolt with a rubber pad on top. Just unlock the jam nut and raise or lower the “bolt” so it holds the hood at the height you need to match the fender. You may find that the hood won’t go low enough even with the bumper down far enough. The latch may not be down far enough. When you close the hood, you shouldn’t be able to pull up on the hood or push it down. The latch should be tight enough to hold it against the bumpers tight, but not too tight. If you have to apply too much force to open the hood or it opens with a loud POP, the latch is probably too tight. If it is at the right height but you can lift it up some, then the latch needs to be moved down.
Doors: If the doors are off the car, bolt the hinges to the door and the cowl in the middle of the movement allowed. Let’s face it, it “shouldn’t” be too far off the center of holes. If the doors are on or if after putting them on things are way out of whack, raise the door up on the hinges as far as it will go while still staying about the right height. You always want to start high, it is much easier to come down than go up. Besides this is the ONLY time you will loosen all the bolts on the door. I don’t mean ALL the bolts, leave the hinge to cowl (or center post on a four door) tight. Only loosen the door to hinge bolts. Unless it is WAY down then you may need to move the hinges up too. But do one at a time, both door to hinge or both hinge to cowl/center post.
While moving the hinges aligning the door NEVER loosen all the bolts on the hinge, NEVER. Loosen all but one, just till it is still a little looser than “snug”. Leave that last on just a little snug. Let’s say the door fits well but is a little too far rearward. NEVER loosen top and bottom hinges and move it forward. Loosen the top hinge to cowl/center post as described above and lift the rear of the door, a LITTLE. This will push the upper hinge forward. Now TIGHTEN that one bolt that was left snug. Do the same on the lower hinge, pushing down, but remember the weight of the door is helping, so little push is needed. Many times no pushing at all, just the weight of the door will do.
If the door fits well but is out at the top or the bottom, again, loosen ONE hinge to DOOR in the manner described and push it out or in. If it is out or in at the top rear for instance, move the bottom front in the opposite direction. This will pivot the door on the striker, and move the rear top where you want. Moving the bottom rear takes moving the top front of course.
You may need to twist the door. If the front fits well and rear is out at the top (or bottom, just reverse) you can put a block of wood at the rear of the door at the top lets say and push in on the bottom to twist the door. Some will take a LOT of force to bend, and be VERY careful not to let your fingers hang around the outside of the door edge!! I lost a finger nail doing this on a ’69 Shelby GT500 convertible once (remember it well) when the block of wood fell out with all my weight on the door while twisting!!
Tip: If you are hanging the door and you have access to the hinges (either through the wheel well with the skirt off or if the fender it’s self is off) you can simply hold the door up to the opening and push the latch shut. Then put the bolts in the hinge. I can often install doors all by my self in this way.
Deck lid: The trunk lid is pretty much like the hood but the hinges don’t move at all on the body (usually). So shimming and twisting are a few of your only options beyond the movement in the slotted holes on the hinge. Bending the hinge or pushing up or down on the sides of the quarters, front or rear panel are the others. These should be done ONLY after all other things are tried.
Fenders: Most of the tips for doors and the hood work here, with a little twist or two. Start with fitting the rear top of the fender. I like to put all the bolts in, loose. Not falling out loose, just so the fender would easily move. Close the door, and with the hood open adjust the gap at the top of the rear of the fender to door. After you tighten other bolts this cannot be modified so, do it first. Tighten the bolt under the hood closest to the door to secure the position. You may need to shim a bolt at the rear of the fender to the cowl, to move the fender forward or back. After you have that bolt tight and the gap is to your liking open the door and tighten the rear fender bolt that is at the top of the fender in the door jamb. Now do the bottom bolt, with the door closed, adjust your gap. You may need to wedge a flat blade screwdriver or body spoon to “force” the fender forward to get the desired gap. Or just the opposite, use a 2x4 or something similar off the front tire to force the fender back to get the gap. This is one of the hard spots to get nice because you have to get both the gap and the in and out of the fender to door at the same time with the same bolt. Some cars have two bolts that are far enough apart to get the gap and tighten the front bolt and then pull the fender in or out and tighten the rear bolt to get the flush fit of the panels.
General tips: Bending a panel or adjacent panel is sometimes required. You can get this done in a number of ways, one is to use a block of wood. Let’s say that along the edge of the hood there is a spot that is high. Well you can’t adjust it down, the front and the rear are perfect. So you can lay a block of wood on the spot, right at the edge where it is strong. Using a big hammer (the bigger the better, trying to make a small hammer do the job can cause a lot of damage) hold the block and strike it nice and solid. Then check the results, you may need many strikes to do it. In doing this you may want to support the hood at the front with a block of wood under the hood. This way the hood is up off the fender and it will bend easier because of the solid rest it has. You can also put the block under the edge of the hood at a low spot and with steady pressure bend it down at a point if you need it.
If you are working with very tight tolerances, you can actually grind the edge of a panel or jamb to get an extra fraction of an inch. Be VERY careful and using a fine disk like 80 or 120 take a LITTLE off. You don’t want to grind the metal thin of course but a LITTLE can make a big difference when you are fighting for fractions. Now, you really won’t be cutting too much metal, you are really just cleaning off ALL the primer and paint there. Then when you prime it, don’t put a lot or sand it thin so there will be very little on the edge.
You may want to paint the hinge with a little contrasting paint. Do it with the hinge bolted on, right over the bolts. This way you can see easier how much you have moved it.
These directions are for doors where the hinge bolts flat to the side of the cowl and then flat to the front of the door. There are of course many ways the hinges can be mounted on cars. If yours are different than you need to use the “concepts” that I have described here. If for instance you have a 1950 Chevy pickup. The hinge bolts flat to the back of the cowl but will work the same way. The door hinge bolts flat to the side of the door. In this case you do just the opposite as I earlier described. You would loosen the hinge to cowl bolts to move the door in and out and the hinge to door bolts to move it back or forward. If you find that your car has a design that hasn’t been addressed, take a good hard look at your hinge arrangement. If the door is open, close it enough while you can still see the hinges and imagine what direction will it go if you loosen a particular set of bolts. Get an idea of how you can move it, then start the alignment process.
These are just ideas that I have used over the years and some may work for you some won’t, but it is a start. Above all, have fun!
|07-02-2005 08:51 PM|
|kenseth17||Well it would scare you if you walked into some bodyshops. When I worked at a place that rebuilt wrecks and the aftermarket panels didn't line up we made them fit. 1/2 is quite a bit. But we used to pound stuff in with a two by 4 against the panel. Or you could mount the door up and stick a piece of wood in the door jamb at a point where it doesn't stick out and shut the door on the piece of wood and hopefully get the door shut enough for the latch to catch and twist that corner in using you feet or something. I don't know what to tell ya. I don't think cutting the door would be real fun either. Thats the problem with aftermarket parts. Always wonder what people would think if they walked in and saw some of the fitting.|
|07-02-2005 01:37 PM|
Best ways to straighten a twisted repro door?
We opted for repro doors for our mustang, as the PO made two massive speaker holes in the old ones, plus the skins were a little rusty.
The passenger side door fits perfectly. The drivers side lines up at three points, but is twisted out at the bottom projecting about 1/2 to 5/8 past where the quarter panel will be welded.
The only option that the body man has suggested was to cut the inner door frame and take a little metal out of it