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Problem starting

3K views 26 replies 3 participants last post by  rrmccabe 
#1 ·
Hi All,
1965 El Camino
New 350 SBC with all the fun stuff and a new Hitachi mini starter....
Now for the problem..
When I turn the key to start it really does not start until I release the key to
the ON position...
Is this an Ignition switch problem?
 
#2 ·
Starter

Doc here, :pimp:

To recap...

Your Car CRANKS but won't fire until just as you release the key to the run position?

If so your secondary Ignition is not functioning..the wire that runs from the coil to the "I" terminal on the solenoid. Check to see that the wire is in place, and not burned, cut or frayed.

To test, just run a clip lead from the coil to the battery and crank, If it fires on the 1 st or 2 nd rotation..then it's bad..

What's happing in the start position, the key cuts OFF all power to the car, (lights go out, radio etc quits) The secondary ignition supplies uninterrupted power to the coil during this function , until the key is returned to "RUN" ..what your getting is the "Tail end" of spark as it passes back to run on what sounds like a well tuned engine..(I.E. it fires with just that fraction of a second of spark)

Look there first..Verify by putting a Volt meter on the coil BATT and turn the key on...should be 12 volts...then crank...It should NOT go away..during any cranking.

Doc :pimp:
 
#4 ·
Start

Doc here, :pimp:

Looks like you'll have to run it to the "S" function..assuming the "B" function is the large battery terminal?

Or you COULD get a relay, hook the coil to ground, the other side to the "S" on the starter, and the contacts N/O, C/W to the battery, and coil respectively. either will work fine.

Doc :pimp:
 
#5 ·
Ok....
Right now I have one of those ford remote solinoids...

I have it wired as described on this site, with the exception of the coil wire going to the I terminal of the remote solinoid.

I was kinda confused as what to do with the coil wire since I didnt have an
I terminal on the starter, so I went stright to the I terminal of the solinoid.

http://www.novaresource.org/starter.htm
 
#6 ·
Bad link

Doc here, :pimp:

That link is inop..

However if you hooked it as described and still get the problem, just move the coil wire from the ford "I" terminal to the "S" on the mini~starter and you should be fine..abandon the Ford solenoid as it's not working and adding an extra step in problem solving..

Doc :pimp:
 
#7 ·
Will Do.
Thank You so much Doc..
I have seen many of your responses to others and I am very
impressed with the knowledge you share with all.
You and others like your self make this site a great place to learn..
I truly respect your advice..
Thanks again for all your help.

One more time...
If it doesnt work cut & paste
check it out
 
#8 · (Edited)
Their wiring diagram is incomplete. Does not show the wire in the run position. It should have a wire from the run circuit going through either a resistor or resistance wire to the plus side of coil.

In reality their circuit shoud start the car and then when you let off it would die.

I have not read the text in that link, but I really dont see where adding the ford solenoid would really help. Although they are using a ford solenoid they are still using the GM integral solenoid. The only thing it can accomplish is increasing the current to the coil on the stock solenoid.

You said your car cranks and cranks and cranks and pops when you let off?

Rich
 
#9 ·
OK, I just looked at their text.

I dont agree with what they are saying.

Normally, your coil runs at reduced voltage to prevent points burning. They reduce the voltage with a resistor of some time. Usually a fixed resistor or resitance wire.

The "I" terminal on the solenoid is supposed to give you a full 12 volts when cranking to assist in starting.

They are acting like your solenoid runs off reduced voltage. This is just not the case.

Rich
 
#12 ·
Well assuming you are wired according to their plans (which I think are wrong), I think your solenoid may be defective.

The solenoid has a coil in it. When you run power from your crank circuit off ignition switch it does the following.

1) Mechanically engages the bendix so the starter engages with the flywheel.
2) Runs power from the BIG battery cable down to that metal tab coming out of top of starter that attaches to front of solenoid. (this powers the starter motor
3) Sends a FULL 12 volts back up to the coil from the "I" circuit which basically gives more voltage to the coil to start.

This is all it does. When I say 12 volts I am referring to battery voltage.

When you crank your engine, you should get 12 volts from the "I" terminal.

I am sure Doc will chime in but I really see no value in the ford solenoid. Its just a big relay that isnt doing much.

Rich

PS: OK on the MSD stuff but that really does not matter in this case. There are two circuits as doc mentioned. You need to have power in the run position and in the crank position. The resistor is for original ignitions.
 
#13 ·
i think i bypass the resistor wire..is that ok..?
The starter is band new and it only has a B terminal and a S terminal...
The reason for the Ford solenoid....the headers get the starter pretty hot and
is very slow in cranking when hot....Its fine when I first start it....
 
#14 · (Edited)
All the MSD's I have seen did not use a resistor. I cant speak for all models. Check your instructions. I cant imagine it requires a resistor.

Your original ignition switch is designed to be used with a solenoid with 3 connectors and is designed to only provide power to the coil (MSD in your case) half the time. The other half during start was supposed to come from the solenoid and since you got one without that terminal, you are missing that circuit.

Where is your power from your MSD coming from now?

I know what you mean about the headers. Back in the day when I ran headers I had the same issue. I still doubt the ford solenoid will help. I disagree with several things in that article.

I would get a 3 connector solenoid and be done with it. Or if your Ford solenoid has an "I" terminal you can use it.

Rich

PS: I think its just popping off because its getting a shot of power during the switch transition while still cranking. When you get back to run position if its still spinning the motor it will fire.
 
#18 ·
OK

Well if you are getting your 12volts from your ignition switch (the original one) it is not providing 12volts during crank. The original switch expected the started solenoid to do this from the "I" terminal. Since you removed it, that cant happen.

So run a wire from the "I" terminal on the ford solenoid and add it to the (+) on the coil.

I did some searching online and this seems to be a common fix for chevies with headers. Really all it can do is provide more current to the solenoid. But must work as they talk about it everywhere. Not something I have done. The Nova site did not show the required wire to make it run. They also talk about the solenoid running off the resistor circuit. This is NOT right.

Rich
 
#19 ·
Hi rrmccabe,
That is how I have it wired right now.
Since the starter solenoid only had 2 terminals B & S
I ran the wire from the coil to the I terminal on the Ford solenoid.
Should I have run the wire from the coil to the S terminal on the starter
solenoid insted..?
 
#24 ·
I miss the days of pulling the key out running :)

If you have 12 volts at your (+) of your coil while cranking, you have an issue with your MSD setup. Something is not triggering.

I would refer to the trouble shooting section or contact MSD. Their only requirements is that you have 12 volts plus and minus at the big leads going to the MSD and then 12 volts from the ignition swith to the distributor and MSD (red wires).

So either your wiring is not as you think it is, or there is a faulty component.

The coil is looking for two things to make spark for your rotor to distribute. Its looking for a CONSTANT 12 volts at the (+) side of coil and its looking for an on and off ground at the (-) side to charge and discharge the coil. This on and off (-) signal should be coming from your MSD box.

So in summary if you have power to coil (+) you need to step backwards from the coil negative to see where the problem is. The first thing in the circuit is the MSD. So either it is not function properly or it is not wired correctly.

I would double/triple check to make sure you have 12 volts at all locations while the car is cranking.

Rich
 
#25 ·
Whoa!!!!!!!

Doc here, :pimp:

Gee wiz...you left out one little bit of information on the first post... :rolleyes:

YOU HAVE an MSD Ignition! :nono: :nono:

If you Continue in your current endeavor to hook up a standard secondary ignition...you most likely DAMAGE the brain box by back-feeding 12 volts the wrong way through the system...(I.E. The coil powering the box instead of the other way around.) At the very least it won't work anyway, as you will power the coil but not the dizzy...from the coil Battery lug..

Configure the system this way only...

Large black (GROUND) and Large red (POWER) DIRECTLY to the battery Via a proper fuse / Fuse link.

The Red wires at the junction point, prior to the switch, take a reading while cranking at that point...you should have 12 volts CONSTANT...no dropout.

If you do..get a REAL relay, not a ford solenoid , or other, and hook it up thusly, Coil of the relay to a 5 amp fuse to the "S" terminal on the solenoid. The other side of the Relay coil to ground. The Normally Open Contacts (N.O.) to the Battery 12 volts side. The Center-wiper (C.W.) or movable contact to the 12 volt junction of the MSD brain-box coming from the ignition switch..

That will cure the problem...

Don't forget...Include ALL the pertinent information when asking questions or your most likely to do major damage to your system...Semi Conductors...or ONE WAY...

Doc :pimp:
 
#26 ·
Hi All,
Thanks so much for all the help and advice.
Again so very sorry for the incomplete inf to start.
anyways problem solved.....Looks like I had an extra wire going from the MSD box to the coil..disconnected the wire and now it fires up perfect every time.
 
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