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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-25-2005 01:07 PM
Timer
Quote:
Originally Posted by adtkart
I have a Model A tudor body that was blasted and primed with epoxy primer in 1990. The body sat outside in the weather for several years. It now has rust stains coming from between the panels, where they bolt together. I really doubt that the etch primer would have held up that good.
What exactly were you comparing with that mis-leading statements for a mis-leading test? You might not realize it but NEW People that don't know any better might have taken your words to indicate that is how you would and should test one against the other for epoxy against etch. That would be mis-leading whether intentional or not.

If I didn't get on the Net and give PPG the Rah Rah song then wouldn't get free T-Shirts, Free Hats, Free Paint Guns, New Paint Boothes, and such.
FREEBIES from the BIG Paint Companies?
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13584

Go Read All About it = Woo Hoo!

You either want someone to tell you a BED TIME STORY or you want to have GROUNDED WRITTEN STATEMENTS WITH ACTUAL LINKS THAT YOU CAN REFERENCE. I am not into telling BED TIME STORIES so it is your choice.

Don aka D71
12-25-2005 08:57 AM
adtkart "I wondering if etch primer has gotten a bad rap because attempts have been made to use it as a stand-alone product. It is not! "

My statement was about the apparent durability, and not to indicate that any primer should be used as a stand-alone product. Since it was my first use of a BC/CC system, I followed the recommendations of the Dupont Rep that I talked to. I had even talked to him about using an epoxy instead, and was told that they recommend the "etch primer" instead of epoxy. He told me that it was "more durable", and was "better than epoxy". The reason that came up, was because I was painting a vehicle for my son, and was concerned about it getting damaged, as most do in school parking lots, and rusting where the paint chipped or is scratched. If it is scratched to bare metal, it will rust, no doubt. If it isn't thru the paint, I want the metal to have as much protection as possible. I feel that each layer of paint should provide some sort of protection for the metal, so I want the most that I can get.

I did use the Nason 491-17 Etch Primer, and 441-43 activator, as they recommended on that project. Fortunately, the only damage that vehicle sustained was in the area that I hadn't painted.

Evidently we now have one of those people here that believe that PPG is the only paint worthy of using on an automobile!

Aaron
12-24-2005 11:13 PM
acsteve
yep I visited other forums

I really enjoy reading about the trialls and tribulations of the painting world. Some forums seem to have a lota regular guys, or atleast guys who have limited cash reserves, and I like most of the feedback I have read, to my and of course the many others I read. I like hearing what a pro would recomend vs what route a novice should take. Just like in my job, there are many nuonses(spelling problem again) to what and how I do things. This is often very different from what I would recomend others to do. The old knowing where the mines are buried thing. Anyway I enjoy learning new things. I have a few projects I plan to paint and then the stuff will all go into storage. Every few years a new hobby must begin. I do wonder about mixing base, primer and clear lines though. Most on here say that is fine, But isnt the point of letting the primer tack then seal till tacked then base, tack then more base.... so that some chemical bonding will occure instead of just a physical attraction. This is a neat forum. lots of interesting input and opinions. Still not sure about the etch primer vs epoxy. I have little doubt that epoxy is harder and seals out moisture but I which provieds better adhesion and rust prevention after the top coat is applied? sorry so wordy.
12-24-2005 10:32 PM
crashtech The self-etch primers that are good to use have two components and are NOT meant to fill anything. They act as an adhesion promoter for the primer-surfacer that will be applied wet-on-wet after the etch primer.
12-24-2005 05:58 PM
kenseth17 Boy I guess it has been a while since I've used an etch primer. Everyone one I've ever used was 1k and very thin. Just wouldn't feel safe painting over that without another primer over the top, and also you could not apply it over or under bodyfillers. Didn't realize they even made a 2k etch, maybe that would be better. Does it have any kind of thickness to it crash?
12-24-2005 04:50 PM
crashtech After rereading your initial post, I wonder if you were sold that cheap '1K' etch primer. If so, sand it off or way down because that WILL introduce a possible shrinkage problem with any kind of film build. The etch primer I am talking about is 2K!
12-24-2005 04:29 PM
Timer
Quote:



HISTORY OF E-COAT

1963
PPG filled first electrocoat tank with anodic electrocoat for automobile bodies

1969
PPG issued patents for the ultrafiltration process

1971
PPG filled the world's first cathodic electrocoat tank and designed/installed the first anolyte system to minimize waste

1972
PPG successfully operated the first color controllable electrocoat system

1976
PPG commercially electrocoated automotive bodies with a cathodic process

1979
PPG commercialized the first one-coat cathodic acrylic electrocoat

1980
PPG filled the first low-cure high gloss, exterior-durable cathodic acrylic electrocoat

1981
PPG introduced UNI-PRIME® cathodic epoxy electrocoat, the first high film build electrocoat
PPG commercialized the first color controllable, one-coat epoxy finish

1985
PPG commercialized 4th Generation cathodic epoxy with reduced film shrinkage

1989
PPG introduced the first "ultra-white, non-yellowing cathodic epoxy for appliances

1990
PPG introduced ELECTRO-IMAGE® electrodepositable photoresist
PPG commercialized 5th Generation cathodic epoxy with improved operating efficiency

1991
PPG developed the first thermosetting electrocoat capable of curing to 180 °F (82 °C)
PPG commercialized the first "two-coat electrocoat process"
1993
Low solvent and solvent free anodic acrylic was developed

1994
PPG introduced 6th Generation ENVIROPRIME® lead-free cathodic epoxy

1995
PPG commercialized high performance, low solvent, anodic acrylic
PPG high gloss, low cure, reduced VOC (less than 1.5) cathodic acrylic

1996
PPG introduces HAPs-free, low cure, cathodic acrylic electrocoat
Cathodic acrylic clear-coat technology was commercialized and is used on a variety of substrates: gold, silver, brass, nickel, copper, zinc, aluminum, and steel

1998
PPG introduced one component 7th Generation cationic epoxy electrocoat

2000
Commercialized FrameCoat – high edge coverage, zero rust spot cathodic epoxy electrocoat developed especially for frames.

2000
POWERCRON 8000, 8th generation single-component, high performance, HAPs-free, low VOC (<0.1), low-cure, and lead-free cathodic epoxy commercialized.

2000
Commercialized POWERCRON 8000HE – high edge coverage version of POWERCRON 8000.

2001
Commercialized POWERCRON 940 Platform – cationic acrylic electrocoat that can be optimized for any combination of UV durability and corrosion resistance properties.

2001
Commercialized POWERSEAL® XL – cationic epoxy electrocoat optimized to meet the needs of the Fastener Marketplace.

2002
Commercialized POWERxTM – PPG’s extensive, but easy to use program to test, treat and prevent bacteria and biofilm in electrocoat systems.
http://www.ppg.com/car_indcoat/electro1.htm
THE BEST PAINT SYSTEM ON THE PLANET = BAR NONE.!!!
12-24-2005 04:29 PM
crashtech I wondering if etch primer has gotten a bad rap because attempts have been made to use it as a stand-alone product. It is not! I see it as an adhesion promoter for 2K urethanes on metal. An analogous process is used on olefin plastic parts, where a thin layer of special adhesion promoter must be applied before primer or paint.
12-24-2005 03:55 PM
Timer
Quote:
Originally Posted by adtkart
I have a Model A tudor body that was blasted and primed with epoxy primer in 1990. The body sat outside in the weather for several years. It now has rust stains coming from between the panels, where they bolt together. I really doubt that the etch primer would have held up that good. I have used the etch primer that Nason has. The stuff that I used was not as protective from the moisture, and I have actually had to completely sand to the bare metal to remove hand prints from it. That is enough to convince me. I have also used Nason BC/CC and gotten good results from that. I would however make sure that the proper prepwork is done, including using a quality epoxy primer.
Aaron
Interesting for how that works with the forming of an opinion that is just WRONG. Etch Primer is not meant to be a stand alone primer and that is obvious in the TECH SHEETS.

I think you should try reading the Product Tech Sheets for the NASON ETCH PRIMER and FOLLOW THEM. Or better yet just read this quote and yes the link is included so you can go looky for yourself. Sorry but your friends should tell you instead of a stranger. I intend to visit a friend down SOUTH on say MONDAY.....
Quote:
DRYING TIME:
Allow Primer to tack (15 to 30 minutes)
before applying Primer-Surfacer or topcoat.
http://www.performancecoatings.dupon...son/491-17.pdf
No doubt about it the EPOXY is the better primer if you are just going to add one primer and let it sit. You know not follow the product sheets. Then again most EPOXY Primers don't hold up real well to UV and that includes the EDP.

Besides maybe the newest offering for EDP from PPG which resist UV.
Quote:

A solar-durable, lead-free technology that provides protection against UV degradation while reducing overall system costs.
The innovative electrocoat combines the characteristics of commercial lead-free electrocoats with the UV durability feature of conventional primer surfacers -- enabling automakers to eliminate the primer surfacer layer from their coatings process.

Dura-Prime features:

• Lower Overall Cost
• Less Capital Investment
• Equal or Better Performance
• Reduced Cycle Time and Higher Quality
• Environmentally Friendly
• Increased Simplicity and Flexibility



This technology can be easily incorporated into an existing facility with slight equipment modifications and can be used in conjunction with commercial topcoat technologies. Dura-Prime electrocoat is the next logical step in the evolution of PPG's electrocoat technologies to meet automakers' needs.
http://www.ppg.com/car_autocoat/ppge.../duraprime.htm
After all STEVE does want the BEST and if'n everyone is doing the monkey chest pounding then let's tell him to buy a new car with PPG on it.

Hey Steve have you been posting at the ASET web board too?
12-24-2005 03:02 PM
adtkart I have a Model A tudor body that was blasted and primed with epoxy primer in 1990. The body sat outside in the weather for several years. It now has rust stains coming from between the panels, where they bolt together. I really doubt that the etch primer would have held up that good. I have used the etch primer that Nason has. The stuff that I used was not as protective from the moisture, and I have actually had to completely sand to the bare metal to remove hand prints from it. That is enough to convince me. I have also used Nason BC/CC and gotten good results from that. I would however make sure that the proper prepwork is done, including using a quality epoxy primer.

"i have no affiliation but have painted 2 cars using their products and they turn'd out fantastic...."

I have seen cars painted by Earl Scheib shops that looked fantastic when first done. Then a short time later the paint was peeling off. Sorry, but someone painting 2 cars really doesn't tell me much about a product. There are guys here that have probably painted that many in a day.

Aaron
12-24-2005 12:30 PM
shine last thing i want to hear is anything from a dupont rep.
12-24-2005 11:17 AM
BarryK
Quote:
Originally Posted by esty
this what you're being so cryptic about?....spi forum...if not, be nice & give us all a link so we know what you're referring to
Rogan/esty
Well never seen that before but I like it!
Thanks
bk
12-24-2005 10:41 AM
lbell101 This is simply my opinion...
I think the etching primers and treatments work but are not as good as epoxy primer. In our product line as well as some others you can't use both, so be careful. If you always start with clean abraided metal there should be no reason for an etch. Epoxy primer will give the adhesion needed and actually give a little build too. Of course there are many acceptable methods but mine is usually epoxy prime, urethane prime, seal, topcoat.

As far as paint compainies...
Well I'm not impartial of course. But if a company makes and sells crappy paint nowdays, they won't last long. You can't sell to a shop anymore without having a lifetime warranty.

Larry
12-24-2005 10:36 AM
esty
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Most of the people on here know who and what forum I'm talking about and for you that don't, I apologize.
this what you're being so cryptic about?....spi forum...if not, be nice & give us all a link so we know what you're referring to
12-24-2005 09:58 AM
ken_c What the hell is all this about?

Why is it that almost every *paint* related group on the internet is dominated by a few people and their cheerleaders?
Anyone who doesn't toe the party line is summarily dismissed by some ranting fool.

Kirker? Never used it. How is that relevant?
Ken




Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
************************************************** *
I don't mean to be a P**** but I knew a week ago this was coming when I first saw your name on here.
Next step will be the guy that says he the Dupont rep like the forum your talking about.
Saying how great acid etch is with a bunch of misstatements.
I let it go on that forum because its small and don't really matter and its more of a pen pal club than anything else.
If you or a different name post that statement here I promise to correct each sentence.
Who ever wrote that on the other forum read about four tech sheets and put them together to sound impressive.

Got the funny feeling this an the Kirker deal is all related.
We will have a bunch of spineless cowards posting under all different names.
How does a person get so screwed up in the head to be this way?

Most of the people on here know who and what forum I'm talking about and for you that don't, I apologize.

Personally, I'm about ready to drive an hour north and knock the crap out of one of them, then I will post his address so anyone else can if they want.
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