|04-27-2006 07:08 PM|
Heck I was enjoying are chat well heck mabe we should start an off topic section for us old welder.
|04-27-2006 06:44 PM|
|oldred||I think he means we are getting a bit off subject here and I guess he may be right. This forum is for cars and street rods, not bridges and power shovels and I think we have just about beat that welding wire subject to death so I will hush up now.|
|04-27-2006 06:09 PM|
What are you talking about???
|04-27-2006 05:57 PM|
Instant messaging, PRIVATE messaging, and talking on the telephone
Chevy and oldred, please see above.
|04-27-2006 12:01 PM|
Interesting Well said, With regards to mining I was hopping you could go into more detail on the mining equipment and why flux core wire was not allowed I was looking around last night a little but could not fine a tensile strength on flux core wire. Only this wire was good for structural Steel Ok that was help full so what does that mean?. I wanted info lol duh!
But the engineering is what I finding interesting which is driving the type of welding we use. On the heavy equipment or Structural Steel
Ive never worked on The really heavy equipment, I did work for a small mining equipment manufacture that made the smaller stuff like cone crusher. shaker screens and storage bunkers we also did cement plants, most of that was mig or stick 7018
I have done some backhoe repair work and hard facing of the buckets. but thats about it.
So In California It's interesting we could weld with flux core. columns connection clips where the beam would bolt between the column and those clips were caring the sheer load of the beam and the roof. So I would think there would have to be allot the tensile strength to carry the sheer load. The other interesting thing is because of the new earth codes you bolt and weld the beam to keep the bolts or the weld's from failing a seismic event.
And last what I'm getting out of all of this is that depending on the application and year of engineering is what work for one application may not work for the other.
Oldred like you said so well there are a lot of factor to consider when welding and just using any old welder or rod is not correct.
I find my self watch the power block on Saturday and wonder why 90% of the welding is done with Mig. I to am a firm believer in using 7018 to.
Engineering in the hot rod world really has no set standard only I use this and it work for me seem A little ifey to me. Is there dot standards for after market parts? and welding?
|04-27-2006 08:03 AM|
Don't know of any mining problems related to welding but you have brought up a point that does relate to street rod welding and that would be which rod or wire to use. When someone says "stick" welding that covers a great deal of territory with rod and wire tensile strengths running from 60,000 to 120,000 but tensile strength is not the whole story. There are various alloys within each group that change the characteristics to meet certain demands so to say "7018", "8018" or "9018" does not tell the complete story either since there are several variations of each just as there are variations of most other classes of wires and rods. In the case of the dragline booms I mentioned earlier (which would most closely relate to say frame welding) we were required to use 7018 and that would be my choice for welding a street rod frame however I am surprised that someone would chose it to weld a spring On large steel castings such as bucket lips some of the repairs could be up 14" thick and it depended on the alloy which rod or wire was chosen, Marion power shovel specified E9018M while EASCO, due to a different alloy, specified 7018 for a similar repair on their equipment, point being here is that there is no one size fits all. However fluxcore was NEVER chosen anywhere for anything except for wear plates and other non-critical areas because we learned years ago that even with attention paid to welding techniques, that is using all the tricks, this stuff was a loser. As a general rule 7018 would be the best all-around choice for someone welding on a street rod (E70 class wire for MIG/TIG) but in the event one might be required to weld on a steel casting (spindle maybe?), Notice I said STEEL NOT CAST IRON!, Then there may be some benefit from using E8018 or equivalent there. As for welding springs this is simply not a job that can be normally accomplished with any degree of success on a street rod so just replace the problem and be done with it. Again you make a good point about how to properly weld a frame and that is to use controlled preheating and cooling along with proper welding techniques, this is also very important with suspension components. Trying to cover the proper methods for welding and precise selection of filler rod for all situations is simply not practical and if someone needs this info it would best be dealt with on an individual basis.
I think maybe you are missing my point about structural steel welding- again the structure itself is designed to carry the load but the weld must of course be sound regardless of what is used, therefore the inspection. The flux core is sufficiently strong and has the characteristics to meet the demands in this application but that does not mean it is better or even equal to other methods, just more practical in this case. I am not saying a flux core weld is inherently weak I am saying that in a critical weld situation where the weld carries most or all of the load, unlike a designed load bearing structure such as a building, the flux core is inferior to properly done stick, MIG, TIG or Duel-Sheild and especially in the case of small low amp machines could cause serious problems when used in critical areas.
|04-27-2006 02:37 AM|
Oldred. I'm not sure I would agree with flux core not being stronger than say 7018 Which was one of two rods we were allow to use in California with all the earth quakes stuff. I believe the flux core we were using had a higher tensile strength that 7018 and 7018 is 70,000 pound tensile strength So I will have to ask my brother what flux core wire we were using. I just can't remember.
I agree flux core is not the correct process for suspension parts.
As far as suspension goes I know the truck frames were heat treated and when we mounted the mixer on the truck chassis we had to preheat the frame rail with a rose bud and a red heat stick. Then when the heat stick melted it was ready to weld. We welded with 7018. if the heat was off just a little the weld would split down the middle when it started to cool.
Now I found the process of welding on a truck frame to be incorrect. At the time I thought that by heating the frame would ruin the heat treating an weaken the frames. But the good old Engineers said no problem you would think we would have cover the frame to let them cool slowly.
Now on the dump trucks it was a bolt up angle clips with spring bushing no welding. Which I found interesting Engineering. so my question always was why weld on one and not the other. I have been two a couple of spring fab shop and watch them weld crack spring leaf with 7018 back together and re heat treat them. I found this to be weird but I guess it was cheaper than replacing the leafs.
Oldred, I'm just interested in the mining deal. With all the mining problem of late. I'm wondering what where you weld process you use on the equipment you fabricated or repaired?
|04-26-2006 06:04 PM|
Chevy, Structural steel welds using flux core is common on things like bridges and buildings but that does not mean it is chosen because it is stronger than stick or MIG just that is is more practical, it is a LOT faster than stick and MIG just would for the most part be unusable outside in the wind. These welds must meet certain standards but in most structural steel welds the design dictates that the structure itself will carry the bulk of the load thus the weld is of a non-critical nature and as I pointed out earlier it is often used where in years past rivets would have been used. The fact that flux core wires are used in building structures has little to do with steering and suspension parts since the demands on the welds here are of a very different nature and the weld is subject to loads and shocks that would be carried in the structure itself on something like a building. As I said before flux core (gasless) has it's place but steering and suspension is not that place.
35, I am a big fan of Lincoln since I made my living with them for many years and they never let me down even when I abused them so they remain my favorite. When someone asks about a shop welder I will recommend Lincoln but I always point out that Miller has become more popular than either Lincoln or Hobart and for a darn good reason! Lincoln, Miller and Hobart are all good outfits and choice should depend on features, service availability and price, not because someone else says one is better than the other-the Chevy/Ford debate
|04-26-2006 03:17 PM|
I have a Lincoln Sp175T as well as a Lincoln Pro Tig 185-had a problem early on with the 175T (Computer Board failed-they hadn't seen that before-gee, really? ), and the Lincoln Warranty Station was very prompt and treated me very well even though I didn't buy it from them. I had lost my receipt and they checked the date code on the machine (warranty good for three years) and honored it-excellent service!
I have had NO problem since and would highly recommend the 175 (by the way the SP175T and the Pro Mig 175 (at Lowe's or Home Depot are the same unit just rebadged). Just make sure you have a Lincoln Warranty Station nearby in case of problems or for future consumables, although Lowe's and Home Depot carry them (at least in my part fo the World).
The Miller vs. Lincoln debate will never end (Ford vs. Chevy). I think they are both great machines, just look for the best Price/Support-by the way, I agree on the Gasless issue-my welds are so much nicer with gas-
I would hesitate to buy the Lincoln SP175 Plus-you don't need the adjustablility, save the money for that 6-71 Blower!, IMHO. I have a top notch Fabricator who works for me, and he told me along time ago he doesn't need Heat Ranges, he can weld just about anything by just adjusting JUST the Wire Speed-I'm not that good, but I find he is right MOST of the time,
|04-26-2006 02:57 PM|
I love the debate I know we used flux core on structural Steel and 7018. I can't remember what flux wire we use only remember it was for Structural steel that had to be inspected.
We had a portable welder guy with a boom truck we use from time to time and I think he was running a LN7 Also in my younger day I working for Challenge Cook Bros. building heavy equipment Cement mixer dump trucks and the big bottom dump trailer. and we use 3 welding operation mig with a mild steel wire to weld the mixer barrel but summered Arc to weld all the seams. Chassis and frame compo nits we used 7018 3/16 rod.
I find that every field of construction use a little different welding depending on the engineering. Me being a millwright and some friend of mine being Iron worker it was closes. Same applies when we went to the oil refinery and all you could smell was gas and they were out there welding. need less to say I did not work much there to weird for me.
I also found depending on what kind of material you were use determined the welding process.
|04-26-2006 01:22 PM|
|oldred||Boon, I agree that the gas-sheilded flux core wires(duel-sheild) will make a weld that will hold it's own against about any commonly used method out there however as I am sure you are well aware of already there are a number of wire types in this class to choose from, some suitable for auto suspension parts and some not. I also have to agree that suspension parts and especially steering parts are best left to the pros and if someone is kind of in the dark about which wire to use this is definitely not the place to learn what works best. Gasless wires have their place and can be quite useful but they are no substitute for MIG, TIG or stick for a critical weld.|
|04-26-2006 12:52 PM|
That question started a debate. So here is my 2 cents. I weld for a living, the restro work is a side line. The equipment I use in my fab shop are
lincoln DC-400 power units with LN-7 feeders,I use .045 flux core wire with 75/25 sheilding gas because alot of the equipment is old and dirty( stuff you can't wash off). So to answer your question the lincoln 135 and 175 are both good machines. If you have 220 voltage you will be happier with the 175 machine. Stay away from the Gasless machines. I have used them all.
As for welding in the four link, not trying to insult you but you need to know what you are doing. If you do have the experance the 175 with .030 solid wire and a 75/25 gas will do a good job for you.
|03-26-2006 09:37 AM|
|oldred||Chopt, Excellent advice|
|03-26-2006 09:31 AM|
A couple of suggestions.
1. If your welding skill level or equipment isn't up to a certain critical task.
Do all the alignment and trial fitting and tac weld the items together and either have a skilled welder go to your shop to weld it or take the item to a skilled welder with proper equipment. Most of the time the real time consumer of a welding project is the alignment of the pieces, the actual welding only takes a short period of time. I built my first T-Bucket just that way. Cut, fit and tac with my 50.00 monkey wards welder and then haul the part down the street to my friends shop and have him finish welding it.
2. Don't over estimate yor skill level. No one who hasn't welded before is going to be able to walk up to a welder and automatically start laying a perfect bead.
3. spend some time practicing, you wife won't care if the welds on that plant stand you just made her with your brand new wire feed are perfect but it will give you the welding practice and make her happy.
|03-26-2006 08:39 AM|
|oldred||Ok, Not trying to beat a dead horse here or offend anyone and if flux core has worked for you (so far) fine but it IS a compromise and it is not as strong as a properly done stick or MIG weld and IMO should never be used on steering or suspension parts. As I have pointed out already this opinion is based on many years of experience using this wire (including the .030-.035 sizes) and includes extensive testing. After market steering parts and suspension parts that are welded are almost exclusively welded using the MIG process with some of the more expensive ones using TIG. NOT ONE of them, that I know of, uses flux core and I am willing to bet that none does. If you check with the manufacturer of parts that call for welding during installation I seriously doubt if any would recommend flux core to do this. Probably few if any use stick but mostly because of the time factor, stick will work fine if properly done. Steering and suspension components are too critical to take a chance with so to anyone thinking of using flux core on these parts if you don't want to take my word for it I strongly recommend calling the manufacturer before doing so and I am willing to bet you will be told not to do it, and for a damn good reason!|
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