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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-17-2006 09:09 PM
ChevelleSS_LS6 for use on the street, I'd use what's easiest/least expensive to buy between ethanol and methanol.

I'm not sure which would be better for use in automobiles, I'm assuming ethanol since that's what they're mixing in at the present.
05-04-2006 04:24 PM
jamesinark Thanks for clarifiying that.Any suggestions on which would be better for the street part-time?
05-04-2006 12:17 AM
techinspector1 Yes they are James.
05-03-2006 09:18 AM
jamesinark
a/f ratios?

Are those air/fuel ratios you quoted?I would assume they are since higher compression ratios are the norm with alcohol burning engines.
05-03-2006 12:26 AM
techinspector1 A rule of thumb is 9:1 for ethanol and 6:1 for methanol.
05-02-2006 02:25 PM
jamesinark
ethanol or methanol

When I started this thread I never expected to get this kind of response .I really appreciate the amount of information you guys have given.It'll take a little while to mentally digest all of it.I asked the questions I did mainly because I was contemplating using methanol as a independent fuel enrichment circuit under boost of over 7 psi.I was intending to use 91 octane gas for the main fuel supply while not under boost (or at least under low boost)and using methanol as the secondary source of fuel under mid to high boost conditions.Right now I'm confused as to which would be better (i.e. methanol or ethanol) and whether I shouldn't just use alcohol for the whole thing.I'll be using a F.A.S.T.,Haltech,or Edelbrock MPI system.I just need a bit more info to decide which,but that isn't the main problem I'm having about deciding.My main problem is I need to use the most tuneable system since I'll be running a twinturbo set-up in the 20psi. range at W.O.T. So you can see why I was considering using alcohol as the main fuel source rather than piggyback a separate system for it for high boost conditions.I already have an intercooler system that is going to be very efficient so maybe the alcohol question is moot? Any info would be greatly appreciated.Thanks for everthing and lookinf foward to hearing more!
05-01-2006 11:36 PM
Brian S "It isn't the fuel that makes power it's the compression increase that makes it. Go a head and fill your tank full of alky and see how well it runs."

I can't say I agree with this. I would rephrase this to say, it isn't only the fuel that makes power it's also the compression or the amount boost pressure in a forced induction application that makes it...

There's not much point filling the tank with alcohol if the fuel system isn't capable of delivering the volume needed.

"Compressions above 12/1 are extremely difficult to get a good burn pattern in the chambers with dome pistons.

The answer is big cubes, flat top pistons, and small chamber heads."

Yes, and no. I can easily get 13:1+ with a low buck Ford 400 or 427/400 stroker combo using flat tops and closed chamber heads. Ill post some specs later.

408/400 Ford
--------------
Bore: 4.03 (+.030)
Stroke: 4.0
Chamber volume: 58cc (AU 302C)
Valve relief: -2cc FT custom pistons from T.Meyer
Head Gasket .041

---------------------
13.2:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 63cc (US 351C 4V)
--------------------------
12.4:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 50cc (Blue Thunder heads)
-------------------------
14.8:1 compression

427/400 Ford stroker
--------------
Bore: 4.03 (+.030)
Stroke: 4.175 (offset ground 400 crank, 2.123 journal, 240 I6 con rods)
Chamber volume: 58cc (AU 302C)
Valve relief: -2cc FT pistons, Wiseco custom
Head Gasket .041
---------------------
13.7:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 63cc (US 351C 4V)
-------------------
12.9:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 50cc (Blue Thunder heads)
-------------------------
15.4:1 compression

434/400 Ford stroker, T.Meyer kit
--------------
Bore: 4.03 (+.030)
Stroke: 4.25 (351W Eagle crank, custom rods & pistons)
Chamber volume: 58cc (AU 302C)
Valve relief: -2cc FT pistons
Head Gasket .041
---------------------
14.1:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 63cc (US 351C 4V)
-------------------
13.1:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 50cc (Blue Thunder heads)
-------------------------
15.7:1 compression

The last combo would set you back quite a few dollars but I think you'd be approaching 1000hp. Not too shabby for a '70s smog era engine with a poor reputation.

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/cart400pistons.htm
http://www.fordmuscle.com/calculators/compression.shtml
05-01-2006 09:50 PM
jimfulco Ethanol is not as corrosive to carburetor parts as methanol.
05-01-2006 11:35 AM
xntrik
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevelleSS_LS6
THAT is some sweet info! And I thought 11.0:1 was high, and anything more than 11.5:1 was race fuel territory.

Alky IS race fuel.....

Compressions above 12/1 are extremely difficult to get a good burn pattern in the chambers with dome pistons.

The answer is big cubes, flat top pistons, and small chamber heads.

When you convert a daily driver the mileage sucks. As I noted earlier, I think, my computer cars lose 6% mileage with 10 % ETH blends, so who cares if it is 10 cents cheaper????
05-01-2006 11:33 AM
xntrik
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsongrass1
It isn't the fuel that makes power it's the compression increase that makes it. Go a head and fill your tank full of alky and see how well it runs.

Gallon for gallon it doesn't make as much heat energy. But you can stuff a lot more into the engine and that extra fuel produces more heat. Carries more oxygen with it too.

I guess It depends on how technical you wanna get with it.

Way back there I said that

I took the same car,

went from METH to ETH (with rejetting) and the car had less power. I tried it 3 times and the results were the same. The car was always noticably faster on METH. But it wasn't worth the price difference since I still was winning every race anyway.

Keep on arguing. You can't change the experiences that I lived.
05-01-2006 10:59 AM
ChevelleSS_LS6
Quote:
Originally Posted by LilSmoke
Actually, it take 2.2 times more alc to produce the same btus as gas,but it will produce upwards of 30% more power and loves high comp 16 to 18 to 1 are not uncommon.Plus on a drag car a cooling system is unneccesary as it usually will actually cool off going down the track.
THAT is some sweet info! And I thought 11.0:1 was high, and anything more than 11.5:1 was race fuel territory.
05-01-2006 09:55 AM
johnsongrass1
Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik
Billy, You just said=

"Therefore, an engine burning methyl alcohol would produce the most power."

Isn't that what I said?????.....
It isn't the fuel that makes power it's the compression increase that makes it. Go a head and fill your tank full of alky and see how well it runs.

Gallon for gallon it doesn't make as much heat energy. But you can stuff a lot more into the engine and that extra fuel produces more heat. Carries more oxygen with it too.

I guess It depends on how technical you wanna get with it.
05-01-2006 09:05 AM
barnym17 also on the down side for methanol, it is extremely corossive, attracts moisture from the air readily. A lot of fuel system maintenance is required with it's use.In a racing vehicle it is worth it for the extra tourque produced but on the street it be a P.I.T.A. also with methanol prices it would be a wash or slightly higher than leaded race fuel. Around here Citgo 110 octane is 3.33 a gal. Methanol is around 2.00 a gal. and for equal power output it takes approx 2 times as much methanol per mile.
05-01-2006 05:53 AM
BillyShope Depends on the F/A ratio. Both methanol and ethanol will give more power than gasoline, even though gasoline has more chemical energy than either one, but that's simply because you can run alcohol with a much richer mixture. Alcohols will burn over a wide range of F/A ratios, whereas gasoline ignition is limited to a comparatively small range. So, an alcohol car can give excellent fuel mileage...and barely have the power to get out of its own way...or excellent performance...and barely make it from one fueling station to the next...depending upon the F/A ratio. That's why you have to be careful when examining the claims made by those who "push" alcohol fuels for street use.

Forced induction is independent of the F/A ratio, so the percentage increase will remain the same. (The cooling effect of a rich alcohol mixture allows higher boost pressures, however, so forced induction on an alcohol engine might appear to yield superior results.)
05-01-2006 12:53 AM
Brian S
30% more power?

"it will produce upwards of 30% more power"

Does everyone agree with this? I've never found anyone who could give me a percentage. I thought it was closer to 10% based on the HP ratings of the '98 Super Stallion. This was a Ford concept, flexable fuel vehicle but I don't recall whether it used Ethanol or Methanol and Gas.

Would forced induction alter the percentage?
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