|04-05-2002 07:27 PM|
Phat, I appreciate all the information you have passed on and with any luck at all, it will work for me. It already has totally changed the car, which will take some getting used to, but it is so much better than before, it is like a different car. The power rack made considerable difference alone, but when the front end man drove it before he set everything, he commented that it was kinda squirrelly...I told him he should have tried it before if he thinks it's too quick with the new rack. He commented also about how straight and true the front stub and suspension was put under the car and I explained to him all the steps I went thru to assure it would be right before the final weld up took place. Lots of reference points, lots of measuring, and plumb bobbing to points on the floor and marking everything BEFORE the first cut was ever made. I referenced everything but the door handles almost, but it paid off. There was no trouble getting about 7.5 degrees castor, but much more would have been a problem, or should I say some retrofit work and possible grinding to make it happen. Everything else remained within tollerance, although he "tweaked" all the settings to make sure it came in as designed. As time goes on and I get used to driving it, the car will be much better and safer. Right now it seems hard to steer, but it was so quick before, any change the other way is going to feel "hard to steer". I had another annoyance develop that I havent been able to put my finger on why just yet. The week before I changed all of this, the power steering pump (GM, '73 Caddy vintage) started to whine and groan. It was low on fluid, so I refilled it, twice to make sure it was back up to par. It would quiten down, but after a few miles, it would start to groan again. I replaced it with a new(remanufactured) pump when I did the power rack, and removed the restrictor valve I had put in it and put the stock valve back. Once I had the system bled, it quited down with the new pump, but still has a bit of a whine to it. This NEVER happened with the old pump,old rack, at all until just a week before I changed all of it out. Got me stumped, new everything, but the whine wont go away. It doesnt appear to be belt related, it's not loose or squealing like a loose belt. Any ideas??? I have not checked the fluid after putting some 20 miles on the car, it is possible it could still have air in it and just have to work itself out in time. If you can find out what tie rod ends work, it may help the next person down the line, I cant change mine now as I have re-threaded the ends for the 9/16-18 thread. I am sure the '95 ends had metric thread, just failed to measure them before I changed them. What ever it took, I had to make my tie rod ends work, couln't find a suitable replacement, at least not in the ones I got to research. If the same style ends were available in the metric thread,(and I feel sure they are, just need to find out what they fit in real life so I know what to ask for) it would have been a cake walk to change it all out and make it work.
I've said more than enough on this post, once again, thanks for all the information. It surely helped my situation...PACO
|04-05-2002 09:20 AM|
Sorry i did not see your post Poco. Glad it turned out for you. You are correct with the castor if you have manual steering you probable would not want anymore than 4 degrees.(can you believe Brent still will not do this on his stuff? one of the reasons i dont use overweight stuff anymore) I really will have to look at the bills tonite and see what rod ends i used.I just may have used heim joints so i could use a bolt and spacer to correct for bump steer. i never used to use heim joints as they got full of dirt and the average guy would not take care of them ,but they make seals for them now and i use them all the time . Frontends /4 links/sway bars. Let me see what i did for stock tie rods though cause i know i did not rethread them. Glad you can drive it now. Have fun this summer ..maybe we will meet somewere on the road someday. dont forget with radial tires to play with air pressure for the best ride and slow steering.You can go as high as 38 lbs (i have some with 42 lbs but thats not something the tire people would recomend)of air in the front if it does not change the ride real bad...that will make slow steering much better but at the cost of ride. Sorry again i did not see your post. Just one more thing i will say about the pressure reducer that is sold as a fix all.....It dont do what you think.Dont believe me? Put a gauge on the high pressure side..all it does is slow the transistion of pressure(i cant spell worth a crap sorry)it does NOT reduce pressure.(sorta like the proportioning valve they sell for brakes) The cheap and dirty way is to take the valve apart in the GM pump and play with the shims.Now that does change pressures. In the end ..change the rack and put some castor in it and your on your way.(for you non belivers go try a ford pump the steering is still to go cart like) Keep a close eye out as i have talked to a couple of manufactures that will be making slower racks which will fix these problems. WOW did i get carried away!!! I guess i just like this stuff. LOL back to work.
[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Phat ]</p>
|04-04-2002 01:34 PM|
|Paco||thanks, snkbyt, for all the info. I had what Fatman sent me with the complete front stub assembly for my car, which came with an '88 model rack. It also required an extention to make the right tie rod end long enough to reach the spindles, this was also included in the kit. Everything installed as per the instuctions, the alignment well within tollerance, and I did try one of the lower pressure valves in the GM pump. It still steered like a go cart, too quick. Phat told me to try the '95 Mustang rack and change my castor to 6-8 degrees, and after talking to several other folks, they all agreed, at least about the castor. No one knew about the rack. When I took it to the front end shop for re-alignment, with the new '95 power rack on it, it was set on about 2 degrees castor. It drove very much better and a lot slower steering with the new rack as opposed to the '88 rack. They were almost identical lock to lock in turns, about 3 3/4 turns, but the newer rack made the car drive much better. After I had the castor changed to about 7.5, it made it even better. It is harder to turn at slow speeds, but I have power steering, so it's not as hard as manual steering, just harder to turn than before. At highway speeds, it is also much more managable. Before, if you blinked, you swapped lanes. Now it is much more like what I am used to driving(Chevy pickup). The biggest set back is the different threads on the tie rod ends, nothing really major, but it would be nice to find the correct thread for the tie rod ends from the parts store. I know they are not '88 or '95 tie rod ends, I looked at both. they may fit a John Deere, who knows, I just needed a pair like the ones I had, only in the correct thread to make it all a simple, easy bolt on application. So far, it is all much better, and in the next couple of weeks, I hope to put enough miles on it to really check it out....|
|04-03-2002 12:28 AM|
|snkbyt||Paco, I have built 3 rods with Must2 power racks and 2 with Fatmans front for Must2 (you dont say which but assuming Must2)and have never used that late model of a rack. Always use the 74-78 Must2 power rack units with the Chev P/S pump on a 350cu. I get the RB's pump pressure reducer,if too fast, (40.00)valve goes in Chev. pump. The earlier racks have almost 4 turns the later that you are using are 3, thats why they are so fast and squirrly. the early non-strut front ends (A arms) need the slower rack. Also have used the 1" narrowed A arms and had to cut 1" off both ends and rethread tie rod, but you dont run into the unequal side to side you have or metric. Also, you need to make sure the swivel point where the tierod comes out of the rack, when the wheels are straight, is at the same swivel point as the lower A arms inner pivot for up and down travel. So you dont get bump steer. Hope this helps.|
|03-30-2002 06:14 PM|
Hey Phat....need more clues???
Just finished the installation of a '95 Mustang power rack as you suggested under my '40 Buick.I made it all work, but some questions answered could have saved me mucho time I think. According to the paperwork from Fatman when I bought the front stub, power rack and complete frontend assembly, I was sold an '88 model power rack and pinion from NAPA. I went to my parts store and compared to the '95 model. When I put the '95 on, the driver side inner tie rod end had to be cut off about 1 1/2", the passenger tie rod end was just right. The kit from Fatman with the '88 rack has you to install about a 4" extention on the passenger side tie rod to make it long enough to reach the spindle. this was eliminated with the '95 rack. The biggest problem I encountered was the tie rod ends for both sides that fit the '88 rack were the wrong thread for the '95 rack. The '88 rack had 9/16-18 threads and the '95 rack has metric. According to the parts store, they changed racks in '94, several years prior to that took the same tie rod end threads I had on the '88, but after '94 they were different. He couldn't tell me what thread they were, and I never measured them, but they just about have to be MM instead of standard thread, nothing else came close. The tie rod ends used by Fatman were not from an '88 or '95, just something that would work. The '95 tie rod ends were too long to use and the inner tie rods wouldn't have enough threads left if I cut them off to make the tie rod ends work. I finally cut the threads on the inner tie rods to a 9/16-18 to match my tie rod ends. The '95 rack tie rods appear to be a little tapered on the threaded end, as the tie rod ends I used would thread on up to about an inch, then get so hard you could not turn them anymore. The tie rod end would go on the '88 rack all the way till it bottomed out, a full 2". After recutting the threads, which really did nothing more than cut them slightly deeper, everything worked well. Have you ever had this problem with the '94 up racks???which tie rod end do you use that matches these racks. This would have solved my problem by getting an end like I had, but in the different thread, just couldn't find the correct one. I also installed an new(remanufactured) power steering pump as mine stared to whine very badly. I used the factory valve and did not re-install the aftermarket valve that is supposed to reduce the pressure for a Ford rack/GM pump. I haven't had a chance to drive it, but while bleeding the system, It did appear that it was gonna be a much better steering car, not near as easy or quick feeling. I will know when I get it on the road to the front end shop. I am also going to have at least 6 degrees castor put in it if it can be done, per your suggestion. I want this Buick to drive like a car should, not like a go-cart...too dangerous with that quick of steering...cant even jam to ZZ TOP when I'm cruising...may wind up in the ditch if I get to Jukin' to hard.....