|09-08-2010 06:17 PM|
Category 1 parts would be R07 setup.
I still prefer real musclecars have the engines they were built with, especially the old, rare cars. My Camaro was a L6 when new so I dont feel any sympathy for making it into a fun, driveable car.
|09-08-2010 04:59 PM|
Thank you man! That other post was awesome too! I was hoping somebody would come on here and say a few words in defense of Poncho!
It seems everybody just wants to believe that the motor they spent all there time and money on is the best, nothing really wrong with that I guess as long as you are nice about it. I like pontiac and chevy both, just for different reasons. I would have a pontiac if I could, I like them alot. I almost had a real mint condition 287 and the manual transmission that went with it. They put them in big GMC trucks a long time ago. I didn't buy it because I was afraid of the cost of making a custom driveshaft or a bop/chevy tranny adapter, however looking back on it, I should have maybe just went for it because a week or so later there was a th400 for pontiac bolt pattern in the paper that I could have just maybe used with my old driveshaft.
I could argue all the reasons why I think they are better but sometimes the truth speaks for itself.
|09-08-2010 04:40 PM|
|lust4speed||An LSX longblock is neither stock nor inexpensive. That's not to say it isn't a very nice piece, but it would fall into my category 1 for most of us.|
|09-08-2010 04:03 PM|
|lmsport||If the requirements are that it be nearly stock and driveable, I'll take an LSX over any muscle car engine. My old Camaro is getting a LS3 this winter.|
|09-08-2010 03:12 PM|
Before this gets too carried away, statements have to define and limit the engine combinations that we are talking about. It does little to base your opinion on the latest, greatest, and most expensive after-market blocks and heads. By the time you have altered every dimension of the old small block, can you really still call it a true representation of a Chevy engine? We can talk about exotic engines made of unobtanium, engines made up of expensive parts, or what was delivered from the factory back in the day.
1. Unobtanium goes to Chevy - Years of multiple after-market suppliers have introduced some truly impressive speed parts. If your wallet is big enough, Chevy wins. But again, is it a really a Chevy engine at this point when nothing will interchange with the original engine?
2. Just really expensive parts to modify your engine - Very close call today. Pontiac after-market suppliers are finally starting to appear and this segment is hard to call with Pontiac finally making up some ground. This is going to be an interesting arena in the next few years for all engine makes. Last Pontiac performance engine stopped with the 1974 model year, and there were very few produced with the gas crisis and insurance companies wrecking havoc. Pontiac people have had to work with parts that were made at least 36 years ago and sometimes 46 years ago while the Chevy engines continued to be produced and refined by Chevrolet and after-market suppliers. Old Pontiac technology held up remarkably well without any refinement from manufacturer or supplier input, and this old stuff still remains competitive in this mid-range competition. As for today, have you researched the CV1 Pontiac head? Pontiac Tiger heads? The new generation RAV aluminum head that just hit production? There are two aftermarket Pontiac block suppliers doing both cast iron and aluminum that can easily live at 535ci on the street, larger for strip only. Cool times ahead for everyone, and finally Pontiac is included.
3. Stock off the showroom floor - Pontiac won hands down, and it was superior to either the small or big block available engines factory installed in Chevrolet's. The Pontiac's were drivable anywhere which wasn't always the case with other higher compression engines. It was a very rare occasion for a stock Pontiac to loose a street race against another stock car. I had a '63 Chevy SS Impala with the 327 (in 1963) that would chew up most cars on the road (including 409's that always seemed to load up and not clean out in street driving), but not the Pontiac's. In '67 I traded in my SS, and factory ordered my GTO that I still have today. I was 19 when I took delivery and did plenty of "testing" out on the street against other brands. So my results are first-hand.
Pontiac cylinder head combustion chambers are fully machined. There is no equalizing chamber sizes like on a cast Chevy chamber, and all Pontiac chambers are right on the money. There also are no casting irregularities that can screw up flame travel. Chevy after-market finally introduced the air-gap manifold bragging about the horsepower increase, but Pontiac always used a separate valley cover. Finally, the Pontiac torque range was brutal. What wins races is the total power available under the curve, and there is no contest here. Dyno results for the Pontiac engine produce a flat line for torque across the curve. Now in drag racing on the track, you can make up for the small block's output by gearing way down, ridiculously loosening up the converter, and screaming it to the stratosphere -- but this produces an engine that is miserable to drive down to the local store, never mind across town or a real road trip.
Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
|09-08-2010 01:27 PM|
I don't know what you base that on, but is the rare 400 Pontiac that will beat a 400 SBC in a drag race.
It is all in the cylinder head flow. Even a set of Edelbrock Pontiac heads do not hold a candle to a decent aftermarket SBC head.
|09-08-2010 01:01 PM|
For whatever my opinion is worth, I think:
A Pontiac 400 will completely destroy a 400 sbc in a race. There is no compare. 400 sbc doesn't have a prayer. If I could easily(cheaply) put a pontiac motor in my van I would in a heartbeat.
|09-08-2010 12:13 PM|
|09-08-2010 02:10 AM|
Here is where I have arrived w/sbc mf starter b fn shizle
Delt with some of this action years ago and the vehicles went away(thank god) so I never got to the bottom of it in my mind...
Well, Low-and-behold here I go again...And this engine is not going in with a starter/flywheel combo which is damaging itself with every turn of the pinion...
..After many parts..I.E. cheapy fly wheel ,cheapy starters from different source,"new" starters from different sourc$450 dollar flywheel from Renezeders trophy truck,Fancy mini Starter from Trophy Truck,(thanks Mike) OEM ring gear (new) Shims to infinity and beyond...
After all this I finally arrived at the fact that whatever bad arse or cheap P.O.S. starter I use,it is gonna have to be congruent with the ring gear... Here is a pic of my current solution which is finally allowing starter pinion gear to fly all the way in and fly all the way out all by itself...The boss which starter mounts is distorted so is just null as any kind of point of reference...
Now,I aint sayin' this is a answer or "the" answer by any means...Or that this design is refined...It is my first go at this silly sbc start engagement issue that is not allowing me to live life to its fullest...This is just where I have arrived...7:30pm - 12:30pm from idea to a functional alignment device...The design elements are so basic(form follows function) I would have to move to a circular clamp style mount which encompasses the starter body in a more ideal mount point(on the starter) even though this mount point has better leverage,but the mount on those 2 studs makes me skeered... Please tear it apart,i HAVE THICK SKIN AND WOULD BE SO STOKED TO HEAR (oops) not shouting......and see some ideas that blow this current design out of the water...Fire Away...
Funny,folks who have "never heard of" or "have never delt with" this issue are just going wth is that thing for...whoda hada wada?
finished for today Lawrence
|06-23-2010 01:30 PM|
i kinda like the idea of having the extra little bit of iron on it for some excess romping. it just seems the 3 inch bearings would absorb the shock and forces of compression and weight of the vehicle. i love Chevy and always have always will but i m building a 400 poncho as we speak just cause. wanna see what happens and if any one puts a motor and tranny through a true test its me.
|06-13-2007 07:09 AM|
|foxman267||Within the discussion of the large main bearing diameter weight wasn't brought into the picture. A Pontiac 400 crank is ungodly heavy compared to a Chevy crank. Chevy cranks weigh around 52 pounds (stock production 350 crank) the poncho 400 crank must have 25-30 lbs on the Chevy in just the crank which turns into parasitic loss. there's a reason racers are running around with 37lb smallblock cranks and aluminum rods. extra weight is lost horse power.|
|12-24-2006 02:17 AM|
So a little different reply. I loved my SBC 400 in my Suburban after I went through the engine and put on a set of good heads, Doug's headers, and a whole bunch of other neat stuff. Hwy. 38 from I15 to Palmdale is a lousy and steep mountain road to get to Los Angeles County Raceway. The 400 would sing up the grade at 48 MPH pulling the race car on the trailer. Then I bought a new Suburban with a 350 TBI engine, and it crawled up the grade maxing out at 31 MPH - I pretty much hated that combination. Not much later I traded it in on a new Suburban with a Vortec 454 engine. It was just a little slower than the built 400 pulling up the grade at 44 MPH. Latest vehicle is an Avalanche with the 5.3 liter engine. This little 327 engine screams up the grade at 58 MPH and gets double the mileage that any of the others got. I love this little beast of an engine. It's hard to beat modern technology.
Anyway, the race car we're dragging up the hill is a '68 Firebird with a 400 Pontiac engine. Suppliers have started to produce Pontiac aftermarket parts for us like they have for Chevy and Ford guys all these years. This 400 doesn't look any different than the 350 that the badging says we have in the car. The aftermarket Eagle crank doesn't cost that much and comes as a 455 stroker crank with 3" mains and 4.25" stroke giving 474 cubic inches. The Ross pistons cost the same regardless of what block you drop them in. We borrow the Chevy BB Eagle 6.8" rods with a 2.20" journal size. Yep, Chevy sized rods are a little cheaper than the Pontiac rods so we use them and pick up a little extra stroke and spend a little less money. We end up with all those cubes in a package that still looks like an old Pontiac 350. There is now high end Pontiac blocks and heads that I can't afford the same as there are high end Chevy parts that I also couldn't afford. I expect to be beaten by a good percentage of Chevy powered cars and I take it in stride. You would be amazed at what happens when we pull away from them - many shut off at half track and fake problems rather than be smoked by a lowly Pontiac. If I raced a Chevy I'd miss out on all this additional fun. Besides, it gets boring seeing nothing but Chevy engines out there...
|12-24-2006 12:56 AM|
|12-23-2006 09:24 PM|
i dont know that pontiac 400s are easier to come by let alone any pontiac
and yes they ask about using a different engine and more testimonials point toward the sbc, and you cant seem to accept that.
and to a chevy guy there is no other engine under the sun.
(screw this thread) who needs to grow up?
|12-23-2006 09:14 PM|
Now, im having a hard time finding one local and one guy I was shootin the **** with at a coffee shop suggested I just use a pontiac 400. I figured cubes are cubes, pontiac 400s seem alot easier to come by, why dont more people do it?
So my question is a few fold, are there major differences between pontiac and chevy 400s, or engines in general?
How do pontiac engines compare to chevy engines? (Or is it a taste thing?)
For peats sake, every time someone comes on this forum asking about using a different engine besides the king mighty sbcrap you mouse folks are up in arms over it trying to codle the person into puting a cookie cutter engine into it. As if there were no other engine under the sun besides the mouse engine. Get over youselves allready! I try to point out all the facts about the Poncho engine and you still jump in my soup. One guy says valve angles dont matter and in the same breath mentions that the 15 degree sbchevy heads are in a class all by themselves, nutn can compete or touch a sbchevy. For peats sake you even cut down big block Chevy guys. Grow up already! Screw this thread.
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