|04-30-2007 02:05 PM|
I appreciate the advise and have learned a lot from this forum. I am, at this time, leaning 60/40 to jambing the car, after my visit to the shop who wanted to paint it apart;
I have just finished visiting the #3 body shop to take a look at their work, talk things over.
I am glad I did. They were the cheapest shop (on the phone) but seemed to know what they were talking about.
The first thing that struck me was how the price changed from a fixed reasonable price, to a by the hour only price, anyway the price more than doubled, with an open end to protect their bottom line. I understand entirely, and this is fine, but he should have said this up front.
Then I asked to see a couple of cars. The first was a chevy pro street car, which can best be described as a slightly better than ordinary paint job, with really bad fitting front fenders.
The next was a 66 'stang convertible painted black. The paint looked really pretty nice at eye level, then as I looked lower, it did not look like the body work / blocking was acceptable for a black car.
It was a little disappointing, but at least I didnít have my car lined up to go there.
I donít have a paint booth or access to one, but it makes me wish I could paint the car myself. Alas I could buy all the right equipment, and I have the skills to make a properly ventilated clean room, but I donít think I have the skills to paint the car properly.
|04-30-2007 08:21 AM|
I'll tell you what Ripped, I have done MANY of those Mustangs and if this car is painted apart, I highly recommend bolting the fender and quarter extensions on as I suggested when it is painted. I have a co-worker with a pretty nice 67 GT fastback at the shop right now, paint looks pretty nice and those darn quarter extensions are a different color!
Fenders and doors are one thing, but then the painter turns around to paint those little pieces it is VERY easy for him to apply the paint differently and they end up looking different. YES, it is possible to do it right, but bolting them on with some washers behind to space them away from the body gives you the exact same result as painting them off the car but with a perfect exact application of paint. It just makes sense to me.
From what I have learned about you, your skills and your expectations, I say jamb the car and bolt it together to paint it. The biggest thing about doing this is that it is masked well in the jambs and that nothing is going to be applied but paint and clear. Lets face it, if you were to have gotten this car and it was fully restored, with only the paint on the outside faded. Let's just say that was the case, the paint was simply faded real bad and wouldn't polish. The jambs were all perfect in the color you wanted, you most likely wouldn't have pulled all the panels off to repaint them, am I right?
I am not telling you, I am asking you to look at it that way. If you would have done that, maybe that is the best choice now.
Painting it apart is ALWAYS going to be the "best" way to do it, but whether it is the "Bestest" way for YOU is another thing.
|04-29-2007 11:59 PM|
Thanks very much for the feedback guys, once again some good suggestions, and information.
BTW the car is going to be a metallic, with white metallic lemans stripes.
Shop 3 has no problem apparantly doing this in pieces.
I have contacted them all and will make arrangements for them to come and see the car, within the next 2 -3 weeks.
I want them to have a look and give a bit firmer estimate on price, as well as any areas of prep they want me to do, and don't want me to do before they get the car.
I have just finished both doors and rockers and am going to give them a coat of epoxy primer, before going onto the, cowl (sand blasting has revealed that this has been bashed in an accident - hood impact to cowl) then a quick tweak of the fenders which are already about 50% blocked.
The rest is fiberglass work on the fascia and hood, which are in pretty good shape it appears. Blocking will tell.
I have to block the underside of the hood, and trunk. Valance, detailing, more blocking <yikes>
As I write this, it seems like there is more than I thought remaining
I just have to make sure I step back from time to time and not rush, even though I am getting closer!
|04-29-2007 09:17 AM|
Ripped, here is how I see it. First you have to decide what your expectations of the car are. I know you have put a LOT of time into it. Painting it apart and reassembing it after painting is not a big deal as far as chipping and what not. OR it is a BIG deal, depending on how well the parts fit before and how easy it was for you to pull them off and on. Some cars this is no big deal, with all original panels, a 67 Mustang is pretty easy. If you have some repro fenders and stuff this can turn into a nightmare.
On late model cars like a Honda or a late Chevy pickup we paint them all apart and put them together without a hitch 99.9999% of the time. On earlier cars, I have found it really depends on a lot of things. One 65 chevelle the panels fit pretty good and you can pull a fender off and on without a problem, another one you fight to fit it and you just want to leave it there.
On your Mustang there are no inner fenders to mess with, it all comes off and on pretty easy. If this is a metallic color, without a doubt I would say jamb the parts and put it together.
Jamb behind the fender and quarter extensions and bolt them on with a pile of washers behind the studs to hold them off the body so you paint around the edges real nice. After it is painted you remove the washers and install the little rubber gasket on the edge and bolt them on and they look nice and detailed that way with a perfect color match.
On a nice driver, jambing it and bolting the panels is usually the way to go in my book. If your painter does things right there is barely an edge on the jamb and it can be cut a little and polished to almost be non-existent.
Painting a car all together and all you have to do is bolt on chrome and such can really be a lot of fun. While bolting together all the panels with fresh paint on them can be a nerve wracking experiance. We are all different. If you feel that it may be that pull your hair out nerve wracking experiance, you are probably right. And jambing the car first may be the way to go.
I do know that all the part should be on when it is blocked. Once blocked and any FINAL primering is done, THEN take the panels off for jambing. And for goodness sakes tape off the outer body when it is jambed. Don't let them spray the jambs and let the overspray go out onto the body outside. This can create all kinds of problems. Just simply tape it off and jamb pretending the outside is already done. That way you have ONLY primer on the outside to sand after it is all together.
On the subject of blocking or letting the shop block. This is a real toughy, if you say "It is all done, shoot it", by God they will do JUST THAT. And if there is a flaw, even if they PUT IT, they will say "YOU SAID TO JUST PAINT IT". However, if you say, final block it and before you shoot it be sure it is right, THEN they are responsable for how the car looks, not JUST the paint.
Believe me, I have seen it happen a LOT of times. You give the car to them "all done" ready for paint and their looking at it like ALL they are going to do is shoot it, be damned what the thing is going to look like.
I picture the guys sanding it out in the shop and one guy finds a funky body line or pin holes or something and asks the other guy "Should I fix this before we shoot it?" And the other guys says "No, the boss said we are just sanding and shooting it." And there you go, something that could have been fixed in a few minutes BEFORE it is painted will be staring you in the face every time you look at the car!
Let them be responsable for the job, not just the paint.
|04-29-2007 06:39 AM|
I agree with Bob. It doesn't matter who is supposedly responsible for the finished product, the signature on it is the shop. They should check to make sure it is straight before shooting it. You could end up with waves after painting, and wonder if they are bodywork, or paint. I know what the shop will say.
Years ago, I did a car for a friend of mine. The agreement was that I would do the body work, and he had someone that was going to do a special paint job for him. I told him I would rough in the body work, and they would be responsible for finishing it. I talked to the shop a year or so later about the car. They told me that they understood it was supposed to be only "roughed in", but all they had to do was scuff, seal, and shoot, it was so close. I told him that that was fine, but they were taking responsibility for the finished product, and by doing it that way they knew what they had.
|04-28-2007 08:07 PM|
|baddbob||What color? I'd pick the shop that is willing to work best with you if their quality is good. I would want to do the final blocking just to check over the car before applying paint-the shop can do this simply by apply a coat of dry guidecoat and skipping over the surface with a block and 600 grit to verify your work before prepping for paint. The primer does not continue to flow-it shrinks like kenseth said untill full cure is reached. Full cure can be a few days or weeks depending on how the primer is applied, what primer, and temperatures.|
|04-28-2007 01:15 PM|
personally, everyone has there own prefered ways. I am one who likes to jamb parts and install prior to avoid handling and risking damage to fresh paint work, concentrate just on painting the exterior, and plus I have limited space at home. Unless it is a special paint job that must be sprayed very consistantly for match like a candy, I see no problems jambing parts first, installing and then painting. But you must make sure any parts are protected from overspray. Jambs and underhood areas can be masked in a way where there is little or no line if you can choose a good place to mask, backmasking and you open and check how the areas are looking color has got in as far as any sealer if used, and covered good with clear, and shoot a blending solvent or reducer on the edge if you feel its needed. If painted with everything torn apart, it may mean less masking, no lines and possibly make it easier to get a clean job, as long as panels are sitting right and done under the same conditions, and care is taken in reinstallation. If they do the job properly, and necessary precautions are taken, either really should work fine IMO, people find the ways they like doing things, and what works for them.
And the primer, its not really it continues to flow, it continues to shrink and takes time for solvents to completely evaporate. Shouldn't be a huge issue if good 2k products are used, bodywork is finished well, and good flash times and the coats of primer are not piled on. Abuse primer and it can mean problems showing up down the road, such as dieback or sandscratches showing, even though everything looked fine when painted. I believe it is shine that said he only uses epoxy now cause of issues he has with other primer types.
|04-28-2007 12:23 PM|
If I were running the shop, I would want to take the car from a point or to a point but would avoid having the owner do an intermediate step. Too much of an unknown for them. This may reflect in the estimates you have been given. I would prefer as a builder to put together a painted car. The amount of dis-assembly prior to painting reflecting the amount of detail I am to achieve in the finished product.
|04-28-2007 12:11 PM|
Three different paint shops suggested 2 different ways of painting the car, opinions?
I have been talking to two (actually three) different paint shops about painting the mustang.
My first thought was to have them spray the engine bay and the rest of the car in sealer, primer and highbuild.
Take the car back and install the engine, running gear etc.
Block sand the car. (I save the labour in block sanding myself)
Trailer the car back to the painter and have the rest of the car sprayed.
My thought process, is that there is less risk of body damage, and scratching to the paint, if most of the mechanical work is already done.
The higher price shop is okay with this, but I get the impression that they would like to spray the whole car at one time.
The mid price shop suggested that this is the right method to do it. They also went on to say, that if I am not building a show car, I should also do the door jambs, and other areas of the car, such as fender returns, underside of hood and trunk etc.
There will be a line when the car is painted, but there is less risk of body/paint damage if the car is all assembled when it is finally painted.
They also suggested that primers can tend to flow even after they are sprayed, so the longer the primer sits on the car before I block it, the better, and the straighter it will look.
The lower price shop has suggested that the car be all painted at one time, setting the fenders and doors on racks, and that it is not that big a deal to reassemble the car.
The first two shops, I have seen their work, and it is in line with their prices. The third and cheapest shop, I have not seen their work. They were recommended by another car restorer, and have a reputation for painting show cars. I think they are likely all capable painters.
This car will be more of a weekend cruiser and might possibly go into car shows, a couple times per year. Defintely not a pure show car.