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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-06-2012 06:35 AM
777funk Is anyone still using these old design inline sanders?
03-03-2012 03:28 PM
777funk I should add that since that test, I now find the foam to be useless in anything less than 3000. 3M did it right with the choice on what grit to add the foam backing for their trizact system (which I no longer use).

The reason I say it's useless courser than 3000 is because regular paper on a hard pad or rubber sanding block levels much better than something with give to it like a foam pad. Also, the regular wet/dry paper is cheap and the foams are very EXPENSIVE as in $3-$6 per disc.

I now use:

-Abranet P600 dry (lasts as long as probably 20 pieces of wet/dry)
-P800 - P2500 wet/dry in steps
-3000 or 4000 grit Foam pad (Abranet, or similar) and this is when I have it around.
-Buff

I also tested only using the Dynabrade at 4000 (sanding with the N.D. or by hand on all courser grits) and I still found a few pigtails after buffing when I looked hard and that was at 4000. That settled it for me.
03-03-2012 02:45 PM
777funk The hose idea is a great idea. Ever since the first time I read Shine post about the fuel filter I've been filtering my spray bottle water. I use the kitchen sink's drinking water filter (screws onto the faucet). Works great. I'm sure any calcium or other minerals from well water is definitely not helping after I just payed good money for uniform fine wet/dry paper.

I use a National Detroit 600 (inline-as in a fast back and forth pattern) and I love it. Great sander. It's heavy but it saves lots of time. I think it's faster than my Dynabrade Orbital. And I can use 1/3 sheets so paper cost is negligible compared to having to use discs.



I start with a dry 600 Mirka Abranet (looks like window screen). I start at 600 since I ALWAYS level sand everything before buffing. I don't sand all the way level but I get close with the 600 and it's easy to see because it's dry. This stuff lasts FOREVER. I love the product. Probably the most valuable abrasive I've ever tried and amazing on the ND 600 sander. Then I switch to 800 to level it and work through the grits to 2500. It's a pretty good system. I didn't like dry sanding. Too dusty and the paper loaded. I didn't like orbitals. A minor/shallow inline scratch that I somehow missed in buffing can pass off as normal wear or a customer's scuff. A pigtail from an orbital that I somehow missed can come back to bite me in the butt later. To me it's not worth it. I still use orbitals for before the color coat (400 and courser) but the only thing that touches clear coat is the N/D inline and the buffer. I should say that the trizact system worked ok. It and Mirka Abralon (foam backed abrasive disc) got the job done and pretty well. I didn't have to spend much time buffing. But again, one or two tiny pigtails that you could see in the right light angle was enough to say bye bye to the Dynabrade for me.

Speaking of... and while I'm on the topic, I did a test a while back using foam backed abrasives. Quite a big difference even in the amount of gloss just with the two different sanding patterns/tools. This was the last time I used only an orbital sander before buffing and I probably won't ever return. The pictures of the test are of around 1000 or 1200 grit foam backed (can't remember off hand). I found foam backed abrasives to sand finer than regular paper without a backing... i.e. 1200 is closer to 1500 or 2000.
03-03-2012 01:30 PM
deadbodyman actually that sounds even better than my pump bottle sprayer.....If it had a little valve to get the perfect flow ....hmmmmm

Hutchins has had an obital wet sander for years ,I believe that has a 1/4"or 1/8" line you just hook up to any garden hose , the water comes through the pad but I wouldnt advise using ANY kind off sander if the car wasn't painted in a booth and the operator hasnt done quite a few by hand first...If you have a lot of trash in your paint you cant hear it or feel it rolling around between the paint and the paper putting hellashish gouges in the paint,when you hand sand you feel it or hear it right away and can stop before the trash does any damage Just think of all the damage one grain of sand stuck in the paint can do when it breaks loose and gets rolled around by a sander...Ouch!
......PLEASE dont use an "electric" orbital sander for this kind of finish work..
.....Afros dont look so hot on white guys....
03-03-2012 10:13 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
i have a clear fuel filter on the hose. you would not believe what comes out of the water line. it's nice , i can use as little or as much water as i want . but i can keep it rinsed so it is ready for the next step. works great for a second round of clear. car is clean and ready. but then i do not do any collision work so there is little masking on my jobs.

LOL, Shine, a fuel filter on the hose, that is BRILLIANT! LOL, you sound as anal as me. What a great idea! Yeah, I may just give that a try. Of course I am a LONG way from that step on my next project. And like I say, honestly, blocking the primer and cutting the clear and polishing are my two favorite parts of the project, I'm anal like that. I love that fine tuning, it's what makes the difference between a nice car and a super nice car.

Brian
03-03-2012 10:04 AM
shine i have a clear fuel filter on the hose. you would not believe what comes out of the water line. it's nice , i can use as little or as much water as i want . but i can keep it rinsed so it is ready for the next step. works great for a second round of clear. car is clean and ready. but then i do not do any collision work so there is little masking on my jobs.
03-03-2012 09:56 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
i stopped bucket sanding over 20 years ago. i have a 1/4 inch hose with a bug sprayer end on it in my booth. there is no residue or sanding mud to deal with. yes with a bucket you will make a god awful mess of it and need to do a lot of clean up. that is why i stopped using the bucket, that and the scratches you can get from stuff in the bucket.
Ahhhh, ok I'm with you. I have never wet sanded that way. I can say that I NEVER get any scratches from something in the bucket because I keep it as lean as I would a drinking glass, literally. I keep the surface of the finish as clean as a drinking glass and I keep the sand paper and squeegee, yep, as clean as a drinking glass. But that takes a bunch of work so the sprayer seems like a great way to go. I may try that next time but like I say I don't do it all the time so between cut and buffs for me I'll probably just stick to the bucket.

Brian
03-03-2012 09:36 AM
shine i stopped bucket sanding over 20 years ago. i have a 1/4 inch hose with a bug sprayer end on it in my booth. there is no residue or sanding mud to deal with. yes with a bucket you will make a god awful mess of it and need to do a lot of clean up. that is why i stopped using the bucket, that and the scratches you can get from stuff in the bucket.
03-03-2012 09:32 AM
MARTINSR I'm sorry, I am missing your point "if you are wet sanding there should be no problem with residue anywhere." Isn't that exactly when you DO have residue, when you are wet sanding? Now, if you have JUST a body doing a complete restoration where the body is painted and then you assemble it, I can see that you could use a lot of water and rinse it off and that sort of thing where you have no residue, is that what you mean? Me personally, I always have some residue to clean up in the jambs and, inner fenders, if the body parts are assembled on the car.

But this is all personal preference for each of us as we all do it a little different. Certainly no right or wrong in masking or unmasking or wet sanding or orbital sanding, just personal preference that's all. If we toss out these ideas of our personal preferences someone doing it for the first time or once in a while can pick up some different ideas on how THEY may want to do it.

Brian
03-03-2012 09:24 AM
shine i tear the car down. i want the tape off as soon as possible. if you are wet sanding there should be no problem with residue anywhere. i use the orbital up to 1500 then hand sand 2000-2500 then go back to the orbital for the 3000 .
03-03-2012 09:18 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
cboy , the most important thing for you is blue painters tape. it will save your butt . dont sand anything you cant buff and tape off all your edges and peaks until your last buff.
and i wet sand everything. when i'm done it is clean and rinsed ready for the next step. plus i hate the dust mess it creates when dry sanding.
You can wet sand with the Orbital sander, our detail guys do at the shop sometimes (I don't know why they would "sometimes" but they do). But I just can't wrap my head around using a sander for this final oh so important step on a special car.

First off, I LOVE wet sanding and buffing a car, to me it's the final step of hands on connection with the down to earth passionate work you have done from the rusty metal. It's an emotional thing to me, to "rub" that finish that you have worked so hard to obtain, you have put so many hours of your life into it, I want to "rub" it to perfection with a piece of sand paper in my hand and work one on one with that finish until it is done. First off you have so much more control, sure you CAN get damn good with the orbital sander when it comes to detail, but the learning curve is damn steep. Plus, like I say, you loose that relationship with the finish that you have spent so much of your life making.

I honestly don't believe you can get the perfection we are after on a show quality job without hand sanding it. Though I have never tried, as I don't do this every day. I just stick with hand sanding if for nothing else, that "personal" connection with the finish.

Brian
03-03-2012 09:01 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Heres another tip for ya Dew...after your done painting ,leave the paper on untill your done buffing makes cleanup a breeze,and if you have any louvers ,paper them off too..Its not just the compound being slung around ,its the wet sanding residue (clear) that is hard to get at and it always seeks out the most noticable spots that are the hardest to get at...
Here, Here, that clear sanding residue when dry is on of the hardest stuff you will every try to get off your.

I forgot about leaving the car masked up, I use to do that myself. I haven't seen it in years because the shop I work at doesn't do it, and I forgot all about that. It does save you some clean up that's for sure.

Brian
03-03-2012 08:49 AM
deadbodyman Heres another tip for ya Dew...after your done painting ,leave the paper on untill your done buffing makes cleanup a breeze,and if you have any louvers ,paper them off too..Its not just the compound being slung around ,its the wet sanding residue (clear) that is hard to get off after the water evaporates and it always seeks out the most noticable spots that are the hardest to get at...As your trying different wet sanding pads try a scuff pad folded in half with the half sheet of paper wraped around it,one of my favorite sanding pads for wet sanding
03-03-2012 07:55 AM
shine cboy , the most important thing for you is blue painters tape. it will save your butt . dont sand anything you cant buff and tape off all your edges and peaks until your last buff.
and i wet sand everything. when i'm done it is clean and rinsed ready for the next step. plus i hate the dust mess it creates when dry sanding.
03-03-2012 05:27 AM
777funk
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
I have to tell you Dewey, for a "virgin" like yourself, I would hand wet sand the clear it is WAY safer. The ORBITAL sander (Not a "DA") is the way to go to get it done fast, but good old hand sanding is pretty hard to beat.

Now, the brand of paper can make a BIG difference. I use Meguiars paper "Unigrit" (it is made by someone else, the name escapes me now) and is the BEST, hands down, NO comparison. It makes 3M look stupid, lasts MUCH longer and cuts more even, MUCH better than every brand I have ever used and I have used just about everyone you can find out there. It is EXPENSIVE, about twice what 3M costs, but it is well worth it.
Click here for Meguiars

Get yourself a little 3m "squeegee" #05518. This will allow you quickly squeegee off a small area and see where you are at in the sanding process throughout the sanding process so you DON'T sand thru. You are in complete control.

Sand a little, squeegee off the water and see what you have, then sand a little more. It is real user friendly.

I have to say, color sanding and buffing is one of my most favorite steps, because of this total control you have. You can make a finish near flawless, you are in complete control of the finished product.
Have fun!

Brian
Could it be Nikkens (Japanese) who makes the Unigrit?

I wonder if it's the same product Eagle Abrasives is selling?
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