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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-04-2007 12:05 PM
oldred Slip, The working pressure of 3/4" inch type M Copper is around 600 PSI and for type L it is about 800 PSI and that's just the accepted working pressure, the ultimate burst pressures are a lot higher. Copper pipe is commonly used (both type L and type M) in commercial air systems all over the world and is usually considered an upgrade from iron pipe, for other reasons than pressure rating however. While I would not recommend doing this I have seen type L Copper pipe used for hydraulic line and in one particular case I know of 1/2" type L Copper has been on a front end loader on a farm tractor (mine ) for at least 18 years without so much as a leak. Trust me on this one Copper is a great choice for air lines and safety on properly installed Copper is simply not an issue.
12-04-2007 10:26 AM
Slipangle I can't remember where, it might have been the body shop classes I was taking a decade ago, but I think I recall having been told that using copper pipe for pressurized air is not advisable, but one of those things that is frequently done because it's less costly than iron. If you get better thermal conductivity to eliminate condensation for paint supply lines, I could see that, but I'd figure if you can set up a dedicated line for paint, you'd want to T-off a seperate supply for air tools so you didn't consume filters where it was less of an issue - and where you might be helping tool life by having oil in the air.

In fact, I think we might have had to do a replacement on copper air supply lines at work because the wrong thickness was used and a line burst. You might get better conductivity from Type M, it's used for hot water heat systems, but Type L is listed for uses with natural gas whereas Type M is not if you look here:
http://www.copper.org/applications/p...y_tube_tbl.htm
12-04-2007 08:36 AM
oldred
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipangle
From a safety standpoint, wouldn't it be preferable to reduce the pressure before the copper pipe?


If you are talking about exceeding the pressure rating of the Copper pipe it is nothing to worry about since the safe operating pressure of the Copper is waaaaaay higher than the compressor's max pressure.
12-04-2007 07:57 AM
powerrodsmike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipangle

From a safety standpoint, wouldn't it be preferable to reduce the pressure before the copper pipe?



Then your tools lose power. (That's been my experience anyway)
I don't use a regulator at all,(just a water trap), unless I'm painting or using a diaphram type tool, (nailer, popriveter). I have a line pressure of about 135 and wish I had more.

As soon as you pull the trigger on most grinders and drills the line pressure drops a bunch. Watch your regulator gauge the next time you run a tool and you'll see what I'm saying.

Maybe with a big 2 stage compressor and some big lines you could drop pressure into the line and not lose a bunch.. A single stage compressor makes no more than 140 psi, while 2 stage makes 160 or more.

I have been wanting to make a water trap like Rambo's, I know they are pretty efficient. I don't have too much of a water problem with my Kaeser though, and I don't paint hardly at all.

Later, mikey
12-04-2007 07:31 AM
Slipangle If you're going to use copper, and in the setup in the photos it looks like this is covered, you really have to use a flexible hose between the first copper pipe and your compressor. You don't want to feed vibration into copper as it is very poor for fatigue strength, and vibration will result in cracks - which is generally bad when compressed air is involved.

From a safety standpoint, wouldn't it be preferable to reduce the pressure before the copper pipe?
12-03-2007 03:09 PM
Rambo_The_Dog
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
I see what I might consider a small problem (but if it works like it is does it really need fixing? ) , it appears that the line drops straight down to the separator. If this is the case I think it would be better to have the separator tee'd into this line about a foot or so from the bottom so that any moisture coming down the line would have a chance to bypass the unit. Under high flow the air is going to be moving quite fast as it comes down that line and any liquid contained in this air flow will tend to pass up the tee because of the inertia and continue down to the bottom of the line where it could be drained.
If it aint broke don't fix it eh?

I take it this is a comment on the "new" setup?

So far the traps before the filter/regulator catch any water condensation. The drains are actually about 2" deep at the outlet - although, as you suggest - if they filled with water you would have a problem - so in hindsight at least a 6" down tube at the drains would help from a design standpoint.

Although, I am very diligent about always draining the entire system of any collected moisture before and after a session in the shop!

Of course I can argue that the first run drains back into the tank - which is a big down tube

I was trying to minimize the foot print of the assembly and the overall plan was to move the compressor outside this summer and add a refrigerated line dryer...what?....it's December already... ...I guess there's always next summer
12-03-2007 01:25 PM
oldred I see what I might consider a small problem (but if it works like it is does it really need fixing? ) , it appears that the line drops straight down to the separator. If this is the case I think it would be better to have the separator tee'd into this line about a foot or so from the bottom so that any moisture coming down the line would have a chance to bypass the unit. Under high flow the air is going to be moving quite fast as it comes down that line and any liquid contained in this air flow will tend to pass up the tee because of the inertia and continue down to the bottom of the line where it could be drained.
12-03-2007 12:06 PM
Rambo_The_Dog Sounds to me like your eyes are "wide open" on this compressor and it fits your needs right now and @ a decent price.

Not only that, let's say down the road you decide you want/need a larger compressor - it's always nice to have a smaller portable unit as well as the large stationary one. (The one with the most toys wins!)

As oldred and others pointed out one of the biggest issues with running a smaller compressor setup like this is that they tend to produce a lot of moisture in the lines - fatal to any paint work for sure.

I noted you were asking about the HF regulator filter - one of these is a must - just make sure it's not a self-oiling type!

There are 2 other suggestions I'd make - 1 cheap, 1 more expensive - but the combination of the 2 would most likely get nearly all the moisture out.

1. Before the filter regulator - install a Toilet Paper style filter something like this - these are available online or at your local paint jobber.



2. Create some type of copper "stil" system - to run before the filter/regulator setup to condensate and collect the moisture.

This was the setup I built at my old house - "5 HP" oiless spewed lots of water until I put this "still" setup on there. Note: the down tube to the left of the regulator, this is where most of the moisture was caught - very little got past the regulator..an addition of a TP style filter would have taken care of that.



This is my "new" setup with my used compressor I bought online from CraigsList - this setup rocks so far, no moisture makes it past the regulator!





Copper is downright expensive these days - but a setup like the one I had on the oiless compressor was still under $75.00 to build, the one on the devilbiss was probably around $120.00 with fittings and solder....BUT, copper is the best for heat dissapation and moisture condensation/collection.

Good Luck!
12-03-2007 08:51 AM
Henry Highrise
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
What an asset you must be to the guy who owns that small hardware store.

Mikey
Did you say ASSet? Lmao
12-03-2007 08:38 AM
powerrodsmike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dugg

I told him a customer is someone who buys something and that while he was up to this point, a potential customer and possibly a repeat potential customer, he was in fact not an actual customer. And, that upon occasion, my attitude towards some people in this world is the same as the attitude of a Las Vegas hooker - you know they just don't give a ******* for nothin.
What an asset you must be to the guy who owns that small hardware store.

Mikey
12-03-2007 08:08 AM
Dugg As a retailer, you can always tell when things are going to go sour when the customer opens the conversation with; This thing YOU SOLD ME....

That would be "you sold me" even though the customer picked the item, went through self check out and it was on your day off.

I work three days a week at a samll hardware store in a small town. A week ago a guy came in for, I think the first time as we didn't recognize him. He picked up a pac of light bulbs and as he passed the counter I asked it I could help him here. I said it twice before he turned and said, did I mind if he waited until he was done shopping. I said, Whatever pleases you sir, we're here until 5:30. It was 9 in the morning. He put the bulbs back (somewhere) and as he was leaving told me I had poor customer service skills and bad attitude towards customers.

I told him a customer is someone who buys something and that while he was up to this point, a potential customer and possibly a repeat potential customer, he was in fact not an actual customer. And, that upon occasion, my attitude towards some people in this world is the same as the attitude of a Las Vegas hooker - you know they just don't give a ******* for nothin.
12-03-2007 07:41 AM
oldred 66, I know exactly what you are saying and had to face the same thing sometimes, in way sort of. Whenever we outfitted a service truck for someone they often would try and pinch pennies in places they should have wanted (actually needed) the best they could get. When those cheap Taiwan hose and grease reels that THEY insisted would be "good enough" fell apart they would completely forget it was they who refused to pay for the good ones. When the flimsy tools boxes THEY insisted on because they cost less than good ones leaked and door hinges fell apart guess who's fault it was? The only reason I sold this junk was because these people demanded it (I had the good stuff for those who wanted it) and if I had refused to outfit the trucks the way they wanted them I would have lost too much business so I gave them what they asked for. Recently I saw a Chinese made wheel bearing at a privately owned auto parts (these are rapidly going the way of the full service gas station) and when I told the fellow behind the counter I did not want that junk and asked for a name brand like a CR, Timken, etc, he told me he understood completely. However he also told me he could not stock them because they are such slow sellers because almost all of his customers demand the lowest price they can find. Same thing at the local Auto Zone chain store when I asked for the bearing there, they had the Timkens but when I told him about the other store he said it was no wonder because the import junk outsells the good ones twenty to one even though they clearly advertise the fact the good ones are available, still when that junk fails the store usually gets blamed for selling it.
12-02-2007 10:17 PM
66GMC
Background basis for comments and apology.

Fair enough, and thank you for your reasonable response.

My opinions are somewhat influenced by my occupation ... I'm an automotive parts person.

I have been doing this for 25+ years ... and it just plain IRKS me when people continue to shop and compare (often apples to oranges) AFTER they have made the purchase.

I wasn't talking about the shears specifically ... more the "suitability to task" aspect of items purchased by you, or by anyone, for that matter.

I have had a LOT of hot-heads, over the years, that will then attempt to return the said "POS" and DEMAND their money back because it didn't perform as expected (hoped) ... and then seem to want to make a point of telling all of the customers standing in line that we sell junk and that they have already bought "a better one" somewhere else. There is a term for this ... it's called "Buyer's Remorse".

I'd like to point out that we (usually) sell "better ones" too, and the decision that was made at the point of sale was theirs, not ours.

When stores such as ours accept an item for return, we are doing the customer a favor, and a courtesy ... attempting to retain them as a repeat customer. We really are not legally bound to accept returns of this type ... and many places do not.

Therefore, the decision to purchase an item that may not be "up to task" is something that we all need to consider and weigh carefully. Being "stuck" with this item, and then having to "buy the right one" could make the perceived "savings" disappear very quickly!

With all of the above being said:

You are right, though, that I was guilty of assuming this was a bit of a pattern ... and for that I DO apologize.

I really had no right to "paint you with that brush".
12-02-2007 01:48 PM
superkaz661 66GMC:

I appreciate the thoughts, though they may at least be in part misplaced.

The purchase of the compressor was the result of two things:

1. an earlier conversation with oldred suggesting an oiled compressor that could drive the spray gun I already posted. Per his opinion, this is a gun that can do a pretty reasonable job at a good price. Therefore, if we take that as the only job that this compressor needs to do, should it be able to drive the gun, my purchase condition is satisfied.

2. This was the last unit at Costco. Seeing as it was already marked down from its original price to $100, I thought it advisable to purchase it now, lest by the time I get an opinion and return, it would be gone. An opinion can always be received later. Sales cannot.

Neither of these reasons were disclosed to you, so I have a harder time faulting you for commenting otherwise. However, while I didnt disclose this, you also didnt seek to find it out, nor assume that there might be an extraneous factor(s) leading to its purchase.

As to any review that I might write regarding the electric shears (that you call not "really fair"), why isnt that fair? My use of the shears was for an operation within their published specs. I see comparison to other tools irrelevant. A statement of how operation worked under a given set of circumstanes is likely to be informationally better than one laden with personal preference and bias.

Lastly, your advice to save my money for something better doesnt apply here. I think I stated that this compressor has one job to do: paint with X gun. If it can do that, then my requirements are satisfied. The marginal value to me of a compressor that can run grinders and DAs is zero. If you think you know better than I do what my marginal utility curve is, then thats impressive.

Its akin to telling people who buy Craftsman tools that they are wrong because they didnt buy snap-on. Same thing for people who paint with Nason instead of top-line PPG. If it does the job that the satisfaction of the person doing it, then that is sufficient.

I really do appreciate your post in response. It shows that you were taking the time out of your life to offer your advice and opinion to a person who is obviously new to the board. That is appreciated. I simply felt the need to reply stating reasons as to why we are not all the same, and why things are not always as simple and easy to figure out as they may appear.
12-02-2007 10:07 AM
66GMC My only comments (ok ... lecture) after reading all of this would be:

1.) It it usually better to ask for purchase advice BEFORE making the purchase. I thought I might make that point as you have done this at least twice in this conversation.

2.) That you have bought a compressor that you say you may not even use for 6 months. It may have been wiser to put aside a few dollars per month until you could afford something a bit better?

I know it's hard when you see that florescent green "it's a SALE!!!" price tag ... but almost without exception ... there will be another "SALE" on later, somewhere.

Being upset and writing a negative review isn't REALLY fair when you haven't done your research and comparisons ... making sure that the item that you are intending to purchase is designed for and is suited to the task at hand.

Spending the time to be better informed, and spending your money on purchases that you WON'T regret will ultimately make you happier AND save you money in the long run, IMNSHO. (In My Not So Humble Opinion)
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