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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-13-2007 03:27 PM
cyclopsblown34 Thanks for the warning about PVC. That is the same reason we don't use it for our family pyrotechincs show on Independence Day as well. In the next few weeks I will be redoing my air line and will be researching this subject thoroughly as I can grasp.
12-13-2007 11:58 AM
AntnyL
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
As I said Copper is my first choice but with the cost of it lately (it has come down some though) sometimes it may not be worth the cost. With short pipe lengths Copper does have the advantage of better cooling but as the length of the pipe in the system gets bigger the advantage becomes less. Copper does also have the advantage of being, and remaining, cleaner but honestly after having used both galvanized and black iron for years I just don't see the problems that some talk about, not in any significant amount anyway. As far as any coating inside black iron being a problem MartinSr is right in that it is by far the most widely recommended and most widely used and that just does not seem to be a problem but if galvanized is what someone wants to use I would not give it a second thought, IMO one is as good as the other with the only major difference being the outside protection.


About using PVC! never and I mean NEVER!!!! use PVC for air lines! Not only is it dangerous but it is VERY prone to water in the air due to it's extremely poor cooling characteristics and this alone is enough not to use it. This has been discussed in detail, both here and in the garage section, and there is no point in going into another long explanation. Suffice it to say there have been many accidents from using this stuff and because of it's tendency to throw razor sharp shards when it ruptures, and this DOES happen, it has been banned by both OSHA and IMSHA for use in transporting air or gas unless it is buried and/or enclosed in metal conduit. This stuff can and does hurt people but some still insist it is ok to use in spite of the warnings from the manufacturers and safety Organizations because they simply never hear about the accidents that do occur.
I agree 1000%!! PVC is a no-no. Accidentally hit a PVC pipe with a hammer while it's under 150 psi pressure and you'll know why!

Oldred, I appreciate your comments since you obviously have a lot of experience with piping air systems. If you say copper or black pipe is OK, then that's good enough for me. Experience counts!

Thanks,
Antny
12-13-2007 11:40 AM
oldred As I said Copper is my first choice but with the cost of it lately (it has come down some though) sometimes it may not be worth the cost. With short pipe lengths Copper does have the advantage of better cooling but as the length of the pipe in the system gets bigger the advantage becomes less. Copper does also have the advantage of being, and remaining, cleaner but honestly after having used both galvanized and black iron for years I just don't see the problems that some talk about, not in any significant amount anyway. As far as any coating inside black iron being a problem MartinSr is right in that it is by far the most widely recommended and most widely used and that just does not seem to be a problem but if galvanized is what someone wants to use I would not give it a second thought, IMO one is as good as the other with the only major difference being the outside protection.


About using PVC! never and I mean NEVER!!!! use PVC for air lines! Not only is it dangerous but it is VERY prone to water in the air due to it's extremely poor cooling characteristics and this alone is enough not to use it. This has been discussed in detail, both here and in the garage section, and there is no point in going into another long explanation. Suffice it to say there have been many accidents from using this stuff and because of it's tendency to throw razor sharp shards when it ruptures, and this DOES happen, it has been banned by both OSHA and IMSHA for use in transporting air or gas unless it is buried and/or enclosed in metal conduit. This stuff can and does hurt people but some still insist it is ok to use in spite of the warnings from the manufacturers and safety Organizations because they simply never hear about the accidents that do occur.
12-13-2007 11:15 AM
cyclopsblown34 I have several friends who swear by PVC piping or some sort of space age polymer piping for their lines. I was considering going galvanized or iron pipe. Since Bob brought up the corrosion resistant coating, I am hesitant to use iron pipe now. I might just have to go copper.
12-13-2007 11:13 AM
baddbob I wonder if copper might be the best way to go because black pipe usually has a cosmoline type coating for corrosion protection-at least the stuff I buy in this area does. Greasy/oily stuff.
12-13-2007 09:09 AM
oldred As someone who has installed literally miles of air line piping I have used Black iron, galvanized and Copper in just about every configuration one can think of and my take on it is the problems from each are overblown. I know the arguments about rust, galvanized flaking off and Copper leaking in joints but in reality these things just don't seem to be much of a problem. My personal preference is for Copper because of it's better cooling characteristics, especially when space requires a shorter line, but each has it's good and bad points and all three will work just fine. IMO it's a toss up between galvanized and black iron and I don't think there will be significant problems resulting from either due to the type of pipe although galvanized might have some advantage if used in a damp environment for whatever reason that might happen. Whatever minor advantages black iron or galvanized might have, one over the other, it is so insignificant it really is nothing to disagree over and the design of the system itself is going to be FAR more important than the type of pipe.
12-13-2007 08:36 AM
cyclopsblown34 I was totally misunderstanding your drawing initially. After looking at it, I realize that is one heck of a system for getting some dry air. I am duly impressed.
12-13-2007 07:51 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by robs ss
I want to apologize to you guys, for going off on here.
Rob, that was far from "going off" don't worry about it. And I am sorry as well, I didn't know how hard you had worked. I didn't mean any harm.

Brian
12-13-2007 07:06 AM
robs ss This is kind of long, but a pretty good discussion on different types of compressed air piping.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=176105&page=1

Rob

__________________
"There are questions to be answered, and answers to be questioned"

Jigs, sandblasting, shop, paintroom, rotisserie, pictures, little bit of everything.
http://www.1969supersport.com
12-13-2007 05:44 AM
AntnyL
Quote:
Originally Posted by 59 wagon man
as a plumber for the past 30 years i feel justified in making this statement galvinized pipe rots internally and you can't see most of the corrosion/many localties no longer accept galv pipe for gas lines. copper is a great product for this and can be soldered or a special tool and fittings called a propress is available (check out viega plumbing products for more info.) there is also a new aluminum tubing meant especially for airlines which uses compression fittings to join it together . brazing copper tubing isn't too hard sometimes easier then even soldering cleaning isnt as important in brazing either
Agreed. Galvanized pipe will indeed rot just like black pipe IF the zinc coating is compromised. Those aluminum piping kits are neat. Pricey though.

You are correct not to use galvanized pipe for natural gas systems; natural gas causes the zinc to flake off and can clog the end-use device it is supplying. This isn't an issue for compressed air systems though.

Antny
12-13-2007 05:35 AM
robs ss I want to apologize to you guys, for going off on here.

Also an explanation on my part of why I was so touchy is also in order.

I Had some private messages and emails on another car forum about my air lines, and the way there set up, it goes around a corner, and there is shelving and stuff in the way to show it right.

After numerous questions, and looking at the picture, I went with a drawing.

I tried to copy and paste this, but this will work.

http://www.1969supersport.com/paintroom.html

on page 22 the first picture.


I wanted to show.

Slope of the pipes.
The least amount of unions, ( they leak initially, have to monkey with them )
No flat spots in any of the lines.
How the pipe changes to 1/2'' going into the filters.
The take off at the top. ( less chance to pick up water )
Two by fours to stabilize and keep it away from the wall ( aids the cooling )
The ends of the flexible pipe.
The drain and shut off valves.
Then if I labeled everything, it might save somebody a half a dozen trips to the store. You guys know the deal on that.

The drawing took me the better part of three days, plus a lot of hours from my wife resizing and putting the pictures on.

If anybody is still with me

I set up five coffee tables and got some poster board, screwed that up.

So I got some plain white pieces of paper and drew it on that, then scotched taped it to the poster board.

Layed it out on the living room floor, that was a challenge with three little dogs running through my little placards I just layed on there.

We set up one of those 500 watt double contractor stand up lights, that wouldn't get it clear enough, my wife resized all the pictures, then we started over.

Tried the next day using daylight, still not clear, so I got two individual 500 watt lights and put them up about three feet over to the side, and that worked.

Anyway, thats my story, and once again, sorry about spouting off.

I just measured the picture, its four and a half feet long, by one and a half foot tall, and the little placards are about two and a half inches long by one a half inches high.

Rob

__________________
"There are questions to be answered, and answers to be questioned"

Jigs, sandblasting, shop, paintroom, rotisserie, pictures, little bit of everything.
http://www.1969supersport.com
12-12-2007 07:48 PM
speedydeedy I agree, Galvanized pipe is only galvanized on the outside. Copper is better and very easy to work. You only need a small propane torch.
12-12-2007 07:28 PM
59 wagon man as a plumber for the past 30 years i feel justified in making this statement galvinized pipe rots internally and you can't see most of the corrosion/many localties no longer accept galv pipe for gas lines. copper is a great product for this and can be soldered or a special tool and fittings called a propress is available (check out viega plumbing products for more info.) there is also a new aluminum tubing meant especially for airlines which uses compression fittings to join it together . brazing copper tubing isn't too hard sometimes easier then even soldering cleaning isnt as important in brazing either
12-12-2007 07:20 PM
AntnyL Based on my research and discussions with a few automatic control system vendors, type L or K copper with brazed joints is the preferred piping system, followed next by galvanized pipe, then black steel pipe (never PVC). The prevailing issue is the water in the air which will eventually condense within the piping. Copper won't corrode and form sludge. Neither will galvanized pipe. Black steel pipe will corrode and sludge will form within the pipe. The sludge will eventaully find its way out the point-of-use device. Since a galvanized pipe system is not that much more expensive, I'll go that route...unless I can talk my old man into dusting off his torch rig and brazing copper for me! Another good (I think) tip I found is a recommendation to use a short length (2 or 3 feet) of new high-pressure hydraulic hose to connect the compressor to the galvanized pipe. This is to allow the compressor to vibrate without affecting the rigid metal pipe system, to avoid a fatigue/stress failure. I think I now have a plan. Thanks again guys.

Antny
12-11-2007 07:01 AM
oldred Just my 2 cts, 59 when you say "pitch the line away from the compressor" I am assuming you are talking about the angle it is being run (the line closest to the tank) and not the location in relation to the compressor? If so then in theory there may be some advantage to pitching the line away from the compressor but actually when the air is moving (at least in any appreciable volume) the air flow will override any effects of gravity and the direction of pitch will have little effect on the water in the lines during this phase and most of the drainage occurs during the static phase, almost all the water that close to the compressor is going to be in vapor form anyway in which case it will not matter much which way the line is pitched. The compressor being located directly under the line in that drawing might have some effect if the air flow from the cooling fan is blowing directly on it but this effect should be minimal as long as the ventilation around the whole set-up is adequate, I assumed this trade off was done because of space limitations. Heat from the compressor can have a big effect on the lines if ventilation is inadequate because of heat build near the ceiling where most of the lines will be located in a small shop and the heat from the compressor can contribute to this. I looked that drawing over again and about the only mod I see would be to move the compressor away from the line if space permits but if not I think any problems from it would be minor. IMHO I think that set-up is a really slick way of dealing with the problem of finding space to run the line necessary for good cooling and should work really good.


Please excuse me if I misunderstood what you meant by "pitch"
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