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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-13-2008 06:43 PM
ScoTFrenzel How many people would use an already running short block?
or dingle ball one in their garage to build an engine?

How many people insist that torque plate honing helps 20-30 hp?
How many people insist that fuzz brushing cylinder walls helps 10 hp?
How many people insist that low tension rings adds 10+ hp?
How many people insist that full circle rings adds 10-20 hp?
How many people insist that if you have dome pistons that contouring helps 20-30 hp?
How many people would use a "jessel" and find exactly what the engine wants?

For the arithmetic challenged
455 x 90% = 409.5

That's 45, not 80 hp

Generalizations are just that, generalizations.
07-13-2008 06:24 PM
Opti ive seen quite a few N/A 347s dyno and they are usually quite dissapointing.

Even some of the well put together ones.

I know of a local 306 running around with AFR heads a good intake setup and a very healthy solid roller.

It makes about 300whp through a T5 and a 8.8. Pretty sad if you nask me.
07-13-2008 05:16 PM
old fords I thought about building a 347 stroker with afr 185's and about 12 to 1 compression. If it got about 450hp I would be more than satisfied
07-13-2008 04:45 PM
ericnova72 If you don't know how to get the "minor details" right, and many people don't(or don't even know what they are), then ScoT is pretty close, maybe 20 HP overboard.
That's the difference between "engine builders" and "engine assemblers". Assemblers can get it together , but usually only Builders can make the big power. F-Bird, I'm sure you already know this
07-13-2008 04:34 PM
F-BIRD'88
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoTFrenzel
I think that is a legitiment number.

Bare in mind there is a LOT more to making horse power than throwing a bunch of specific parts together and hooking it to a dyno.

There is 20-30 hp difference in the honing jobs done on cylinder walls.
There is 10-20 hp difference in the rings that are used. full circle?
Piston crown detailing makes up to 30 hp difference on many engines.
We know that thin synthetic oil is good for 1 1/2 % more power, instantly.
Then you use a Jessel drive and get the cam timing perfect for what the combination wants,
change pushrods to find any harmonic unbalance and get the best numbers.
etc.

Lot of "minor" details done by skilled craftsmen add up to more hp than what can be duplicated by the hot rod masses.

You can bet your money that the AFR engines are detailed to the max in every way, shape, form, and fashion.

Realisticly IMO if most of us put together the identical parts list we would be doing good to get 90% of the stated figure.

So according to you, we should subtract 80hp from AFR's dyno tests to see what their heads will really do if we were to buy them. 30+20+30=80hp
07-12-2008 07:07 PM
ScoTFrenzel I think that is a legitiment number.

Bare in mind there is a LOT more to making horse power than throwing a bunch of specific parts together and hooking it to a dyno.

There is 20-30 hp difference in the honing jobs done on cylinder walls.
There is 10-20 hp difference in the rings that are used. full circle?
Piston crown detailing makes up to 30 hp difference on many engines.
We know that thin synthetic oil is good for 1 1/2 % more power, instantly.
Then you use a Jessel drive and get the cam timing perfect for what the combination wants,
change pushrods to find any harmonic unbalance and get the best numbers.
etc.

Lot of "minor" details done by skilled craftsmen add up to more hp than what can be duplicated by the hot rod masses.

You can bet your money that the AFR engines are detailed to the max in every way, shape, form, and fashion.

Realisticly IMO if most of us put together the identical parts list we would be doing good to get 90% of the stated figure.
07-12-2008 06:46 PM
Opti Tany Mamo is a good guy and really knows his stuff but I think when it comes to the LTX and GEN 1 stuff, they are just resting on their laurels.
07-12-2008 06:24 PM
curtis73 Opti... thats the exact porter I'm using; advanced induction. Nice heads, and I agree. Their published timeslips tell the truth; power and torque under the curve is what wins the race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sam missle
flow numbers are just a number, you can make any head flow great numbers but will it make your car faster? when you get your LT1 heads compare them to the AFR'S. let us know if they actually flow the same with the same port velocity. i think you will be suprised, and find that the AFR is a far better head.
Done and done. Not with my LT1 heads because I don't have them, but I saw the proof in the pudding on the bench with a club member's LT1 heads done by AI. Much better velocity through the neck and far less short turn delamination than the AFRs. The AFRs I used were just absolute junk, handled by idiots, and machined on an ancient CNC by a company that doesn't know squat. I truly hope the three sets of heads I had and the terrible customer service I had were an isolated incident, but I only offer this story to maybe make people aware that they shouldn't blindly trust them.

Oh... and on the topic of customer service, those AFRs that I mentioned with the CNC cut too deep on one side of the chamber and untouched on the other? They refused to accept them for return. I had to drive the heads up there, show them what was wrong, and then they offered to refund me minus a 30% restocking fee - which brings up two very murky things. Either they intended on putting them back on the shelf for some other poor soul, or they were just going to junk them and soak me for 30%. I had to get a lawyer, so when it comes to customer service? Don't ask ME about it.
07-12-2008 06:01 PM
Opti The Lt1 owner is completely right. AFR isnt what it used to be. They used to be awesome but when they went to make their LT1 heads they just transfered over a slightly modified SBC. The LTX AFRS blow. Especially for the money.

The onyl LTX AFRs worth buying are the 227cc and only the guys doing all out builds are buying those and about 99% of them are having them shipped out for more port work.

A ported stock casting is a far better head for the money for the LTx crowd, and flow numbers dont mean jack.

People like Advanced Induction are doing good work with ported stock castings. Hows 500whp out of a 355 on an LTX manifold sound?
Go to advancedinduction.com

And the other ones, the LT4 raised runner AFRs are apparently a huge ***** and ALOT of money to get setup properly.

I have seen some pretty weak things from AFR lately and there are alot better choices out there.

Their LSX castings are pretty darn good but people are doing the same things with ported 5.3 heads. About the only good things I have to say are their 205cc LSx heads have some great mid lift numbers.
07-12-2008 05:43 PM
onebadmerc Stock Ford 302 blocks will hold together for awhile with 450 hp, push it to 500 hp and expect it to split right in half down the lifter gallery. I wouldn't push a stock 302 block more than 400 hp if you want any kind of life out of the engine. This is why Ford Motorsports makes the beefed up 302 blocks and World makes a even better 302 block. It is very easy to make too much hp for a stock 302 and have it spit parts everywhere.
07-12-2008 01:09 PM
n-gin I am no expert but I myself would look at those numbers as pretty high. about 50 to high.
07-12-2008 11:44 AM
F-BIRD'88 The big (for a 650 demon carb) jets indicates the test was done with cold, dense air (winter). Probabily much colder than 60F-70F. Cold, dense, winter air makes more power than the SAE dyno test standard spec. Probabily raw uncorrected numbers.
07-12-2008 09:58 AM
sam-missle
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73
I have used AFRs several times before because I always heard they were the best, but I was ALWAYS disappointed in the performance. Their flow to port volume ratios aren't anything to write home about, and they tend to inflate flow numbers. Put them on a bench yourself and you'll probably find they don't flow nearly as much as AFR claims.

Having toured their facility several times, I can see why. Their CNC machine is older than dirt, and their port models are getting old; as in last updated in the early 90s for most traditional blocks from what I understand.

AFRs are fine heads and they perform great, but I think they make most of their money by publishing big claims and hoping that the person who buys it doesn't actually know what HP feels like. They seem a bit "boutique" to me; all claim and not much game. One of the sets I had, the CNC machine dug way too fast and too deep into one side of the chamber and totally missed the other side. The fact that they screwed up is human, but to miss it during inspection, or to actively send it to me anyway knowing it was messed up just turned my stomach.

Any time you see over 2 hp per CI in a stroker block, you can pretty much bet you're looking at a shortblock that is in the 5-figure range.

... and, no, it won't hold together, nor will it make any power until 5000 rpm. And it will idle at 2000.

Put it this way... I'm currently building an LT1 383 stroker. For $2700 I could have AFR 180s... BUT, instead I'm going to spend $1800 on custom CNC ported LT1 heads that flow as much actual air (not advertised) as the AFR 180s, and that 18 bills also gets me titanium retainers, pacalloy beehive springs, 2.02/1.6 valves, and an F1-spec TIR < .00012" valvejob with Manley stainless ProFlos AND (the big one) my choice of a custom made, hardened billet roller cam.

I strongly suggest looking to other avenues. If you're rich and you want the prestige of AFR's name to wow the guys at the cruise-in, go for it. If you want to go fast and your name isn't Midas, look elsewhere.
\

flow numbers are just a number, you can make any head flow great numbers but will it make your car faster? when you get your LT1 heads compare them to the AFR'S. let us know if they actually flow the same with the same port velocity. i think you will be suprised, and find that the AFR is a far better head.

sam-missle
07-12-2008 09:46 AM
sam-missle
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
The AFR 180's are for your grandma's car, I'm talkin' real manly heads in the 210cc+ range. The two sets we tested on a SF-600 bench were within
1 1/2% of what AFR said they were.
X2, every AFR head i have dealt with has been spot on as far advertised flow numbers. can't say that for the other major player cnc ported heads. also if you ever do have a problem with AFR heads, their customer service is second to none.


sam-missle
07-12-2008 02:03 AM
ericnova72 The AFR 180's are for your grandma's car, I'm talkin' real manly heads in the 210cc+ range. The two sets we tested on a SF-600 bench were within
1 1/2% of what AFR said they were.
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