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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 07:19 PM
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for the reasons posted above ^^^^^^^^
its all a gimmic

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 08:03 PM
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It may be that painting with Nitrogen is not far fetched at all and apparently two tanks together would provide enough gas and maybe even one would be enough, there would of course be the expense of the manifold if more than one tank is used but these are not all that expensive. Not sure if a standard regulator would flow enough to power a HVLP gun but it probably would work for a conventional gun and maybe some of the better HVLPs. Maybe??
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 10:03 PM
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Nitrogen in tires is not a gimick. Aircraft tires use nitrogen as it is much more stable with temperature changes and pressure changes(altitude) If you filled an aircraft tire to about 150 PSI (some tires are inflated to over 200 psi) with normal air on the ground it could easily double at altitude and blow the tire up with catastropic results. on landing the heat generatred by landing friction and brake application is so high you get the same expansion problem. Nitrogen pressure in a hot tire is not much higher than a cold tire. Check your car tire in the morning, then after an hors drive in the summmer and you could see 5 psi difference easily. Race car tires need to be kept stable as they are balanced with tire pressure and the heat generated is alot more intense than in a passenger car.

I fail to see the benefit of using nitrogen in a painting application, the cost of a contract or purchase of a bottle can't be that much of a savings over a decent compressor. Plus it would be dangerous to displace all your breathing air with an inert gas. i can speak to that firsthand as we had an issue at work releasing nitrogen into a small room. luckily headashes were the worst ingury but it could have been much worse.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:40 PM
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quote- [ If you filled an aircraft tire to about 150 PSI (some tires are inflated to over 200 psi) with normal air on the ground it could easily double at altitude and blow the tire up with catastropic results.


Uhh, I don't think so That kind of defies the laws of physics dose'nt it? The tire may tend to expand a tiny bit because the outside pressure will decrease but the pressure inside the tire can not increase unless you add more air, increase the temperature or decrease the size of the tire. In fact on a hot day, or most any day, the pressure would drop slightly instead of increasing because of the drastic temperature drop between ground level and 30,000 ft. I agree with you about the heat generated on landing but pressure increase with altitude? No way! I picked about 30,000 ft as an example because I assume you are talking about jets and plain air is of no concern at all in my Cessna 152 which will never see over 12,000 ft but lots of aircraft use plain air and go a hell of a lot higher than that without tire problems. As has already been pointed out Oxygen depletion would be of no concern in a paint booth or any painting area because ventilation is required anyway, like I said earlier the paint fumes and over-spray would reach toxic and blinding levels long before Oxygen depletion becomes a problem.

Last edited by oldred; 04-11-2007 at 12:04 AM.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2007, 08:17 AM
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Hehe... Reminds me of the time we were driving from here (EL = 16 ft) to Colorado (EL = 8850 ft) and had a bag of chips in the trunk. When we got there, that puppy was swole up about 3x normal size, but never did blow!

Russ
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2007, 08:59 AM
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That bag expanded because the pressure outside dropped, not because the pressure inside increased.(incidentally those bags are filled with Nitrogen to displace the Oxygen so the contents won't go stale ) At that altitude change the pressure dropped by a few psi and so the gas in the bag was allowed to expand and if taken higher it would have exploded but this would be due to the bag, unlike a tire, being unable to contain the few PSI difference and even at 50,000 ft it would not be enough to cause a tire to explode. To say that the pressure in an aircraft tire would double and result in explosion at altitude due to being inflated with air instead of Nitrogen is simply ridiculous. The difference in pressure change in a car tire using Nitrogen instead air because of heat build-up may very well be enough to make a difference in tread wear, I had not thought of that. I think it was about a year ago that someone asked about spraying paint with Nitrogen or CO2 because the location did not lend itself to using a compressor and now it has been asked again. There may be some legitimate reasons for the need for this and it does no harm to examine it since it seems anyway that it might be more practical than at first thought. If the cost could be held to less than $25 or so per job then in comparison to other costs it may not be too expensive, key word here being "if". Once the tanks are set up then refill would not be that costly and one would have zero problems with air line contamination and possibly even some other benefits (or maybe drawbacks?) that we have not covered yet.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2007, 12:07 PM
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I have been schooled! I had erred in my statement, the presure doesn't increse, the pressure differential increases. 4 psi differential can be a huge deal when you have a sudden pressure release. You are also correct in saying that the toxic elements of a paint job would outweigh the oxygen displacement from the nitrogen but why add an element if you don't have to. This is almost as funny as the guy who wanted to inject oxygen into his carb to get more power. If you can't afford a compressor you can't afford the paint and if you don't have the facility to support a compressor you probably shouldn't be painting either. Call me stupid but I don't see the point.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2007, 04:21 PM
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There is a whole lot of misinformation about nitrogen filled tires. For those who appriciate the math and engineering analysis, here's a link to debunk the whole marketing myth:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=168616&page=1

To summarize, the FAA requires N2 filled tires on aircraft not due to expansion but to mitigate the chance of fire due to an overheated brake on landing. In addition, it is usually more convenient to drag a nitrogen bottle on a cart across the tarmac than to find a compressor and drag an air hose. Also, most aircraft tires are filled to 125 psi, which is at the high end for most small compressors.

As for the thermal expansion myth, it isn't due to air (which is already 80% nitrogen), it's due to water vapor. High pressure nitrogen bottles have considerably less water vapor than compressed air unless you have an outstanding drier in your compressor system. On the other hand, if you run through the math on the link I referenced, you'll find that for a normal, street-driven tire, the water vapor will make AT MOST a 0.5 psi difference as the tire is heated from room temp to 200 deg F. If you're worried about the water vapor in the air used to fill the tire, I'll again point out that the first thing you do when mounting a tire on a rim is to swab the beads. I'm willing to bet that puts way more water vapor inside the tire than any amount of compressed air.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2007, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
There is a whole lot of misinformation about nitrogen filled tires. For those who appriciate the math and engineering analysis, here's a link to debunk the whole marketing myth:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=168616&page=1

To summarize, the FAA requires N2 filled tires on aircraft not due to expansion but to mitigate the chance of fire due to an overheated brake on landing. In addition, it is usually more convenient to drag a nitrogen bottle on a cart across the tarmac than to find a compressor and drag an air hose. Also, most aircraft tires are filled to 125 psi, which is at the high end for most small compressors.

As for the thermal expansion myth, it isn't due to air (which is already 80% nitrogen), it's due to water vapor. High pressure nitrogen bottles have considerably less water vapor than compressed air unless you have an outstanding drier in your compressor system. On the other hand, if you run through the math on the link I referenced, you'll find that for a normal, street-driven tire, the water vapor will make AT MOST a 0.5 psi difference as the tire is heated from room temp to 200 deg F. If you're worried about the water vapor in the air used to fill the tire, I'll again point out that the first thing you do when mounting a tire on a rim is to swab the beads. I'm willing to bet that puts way more water vapor inside the tire than any amount of compressed air.
Exactly. I have maintained that if there is any advantage to using bottled N2 to fill tires, it comes strictly from reducing the oxidation of the rubber inside the tire, thereby increasing life. However, the oxidation due to air is so slow, you would really have to park the car for long periods of time to realize the benefit. And, the exterior of the tire is exposed to air, so you are only half way there. Finally, you should be driving it and wearing the tires out before they oxidize.

To bring it back to painting, I think if your booth has proper ventilation, this would work. But again, I think the return on investment is minimal.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2007, 08:42 AM
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The tires of my Caterpillar 416 backhoe came filled from the factory with nitrogen, and the cat owner's manual advices to always use nitrogen only, to keep the rims from rusting, it's absolutelly dry, formula one tires are also filled with nitrogen to avoid changes in pressure, by the way my local kart club prohibits the use of nitrogen just to keep competition fair an lower costs, we race sudam motors wich are quite expensive.

Augusto
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2008, 11:08 AM
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I just got my "Parts & People" newsletter today and there was an article on spraying with Nitrogen. Check out this link....Nitrotherm spray systems Haydell industries is distributinig them out of Lafayette La maybe new stuff in the US, but it looks like old news in Europe. Been used at collision shops as well as at the manufacturing level.

Very cool stuff.

Brian
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2008, 06:44 PM
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nitrogen to paint with

I gotta chime in on this. Give every body my two scents. Nitrogen is harmless It is used daily by fire sprinkler companies two air up dry systems, because it expands at about one hundred two one.secondly for any one who would ever want to know nitrogen is the source and (I'M serious) that powers all of those neat little power tools in the operating room. Yes when they operate on you with all those neat little gadgets they are powered buy nitrogen. Compressed air would allow bacteria to grow. My father inlaw is an MD and I have had to work around it in hospitals before. The only side effects to using it to paint with would be supplying consistant volume and YES nitrogen is VERY cold when large cfms are released. ( you would have frost on your paint gun) Think i'm kidding Try it, the volume needed to run a paint gun would leave you with an ice cube in your hand. I'm for any one trying something new or the latest but this one wouldn't pay off to well for you. MY TWO CENTS (LOL)
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2008, 07:54 PM
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I am sure it is more complicated than simply getting a nigrogen filled tank and putting an air hose on it to your gun. But the link that I have proved may have a little more to help understand it. I was at work when I found that and didn't have time to read it all. But the once over I gave it sounds like it is a pretty promising way to decrease a number of problems related to applying automotive finishes.

Now with the waterborne that is comeing our way...........

Brian
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2008, 09:16 AM
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Watch the video at the link, VERY cool stuff!!! Not only is it great science/chemistry basics lesson it shows a nice application of paint as well. Very cool technology.

Brian
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2008, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Watch the video at the link, VERY cool stuff!!! Not only is it great science/chemistry basics lesson it shows a nice application of paint as well. Very cool technology.

Brian
I liked the way all those plus (+) signs just sprayed out. I think clovers would be a better design though.

I wonder if a guy could do the same with Co2..
He could toss a chunk of dry ice in his pressure pot and as it dissolved, it would pressurize the inside of the pot and he could spray away... (I think you'd need a big pot though....)

Is Co2 as flammable as nitrogen? I read somewhere that it was..
(all kinds of disinformation out there....cain't never be too sure of what ya read)

Nitrogen sure would be good for spraying filled polyester surfacing primers..That tape peel test was something else...

I wonder how the final hardness of the paint is affected, doesn't the action of spraying paint have a tendancy to mix oxygen in and hasten cure and cured hardness levels?

Later, mikey
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