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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2008, 07:46 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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No, I am out of the paint business these days other than just at the shop kinda stuff. If I was still a rep I would be in the loop, but come to think of it, I can call a few people.

I'll do that tomorrow.

Brian

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Old 02-20-2008, 08:29 AM
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Most of the theories I see regarding Ni in tires focuses on the 'fact' that Oxygen leaks out of the tire faster than Ni. If you take a minute to think about this you can see how ridiculous this hypothesis is.

Lets say I fill my tire to 50 psi with regular air. If we round up figures and ignore trace gases to make calculation easier then the tire has 80% Ni and 20% Ox. Now if we are to believe the Ni companies the Ox. will leak first as it is a smaller molecule. When the pressure goes down to 40psi we can assume all the Ox. has leaked out and the tire now contains 100% Ni. We fill up again to the required 50psi and out of the replacement compressed air only 20% is Ox. Now out of the whole volume of the tire there is only 4% Ox and 96% Ni. It is only going to take one more fill up to put the level of Ox. below 1%. That is better than filling it up with pure Ni as that is only 99% pure!

Hey I have just realised I have my very own Ni generator (4 of them in fact)!! Better than paying more than $5000 for one.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...1919_200331919
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimshaw

Hey I have just realised I have my very own Ni generator (4 of them in fact)!! Better than paying more than $5000 for one.
Cool, if only the oxygen makes it through tires can we make respirator filters out of old tires too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimshaw
Most of the theories I see regarding Ni in tires focuses on the 'fact' that Oxygen leaks out of the tire faster than Ni. If you take a minute to think about this you can see how ridiculous this hypothesis is.
I always heard that the main advantage to putting Ni in tires is the stability of pressure with temperature changes.

Speede5 attests to that fact in his post above.


Later, mikey
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:43 AM
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The 'theory' that Ni is more stable for a change in temp. is not true. Even the Ni companies don't say that. This is the first line of the paragraph that I got from their web site.

'Fundamentally, air, oxygen and nitrogen will all behave exactly the same, in terms of just how much pressure will change for each 10 degrees of temperature change.'

If you can remember anything about your old chemistry class this is one of the 'Gas Laws' which basically says all gases or mixture of gases expand/contract the same amount. (I had to look it up!!).
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008, 09:47 AM
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I have a friend who is using a nitrogen setup to spray at his shop. I have never tried it to see the pro and cons. He says it is great. He claims less trash,metallics lay out better,and no moisture. I really dunno. I may go run by and try it but I don't see my self changing over anytime soon unless my compressor starts making it own nitrogen. Tim
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008, 11:29 AM
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Yep, I called an old S-W rep friend of mine and he along with the S-W store salesmen both said the news of Nitrogen is going around the industry here (10 years after the Europeans of course) and we will be seeing more of it out there. Some shops are using it already. From what the S-W guys were saying they have only heard the news, no first hand testing yet. And, the pricing is just out of sight at this point only the high end shops are targeted. But it sounds like it is on the way!

Brian
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimshaw
The 'theory' that Ni is more stable for a change in temp. is not true. Even the Ni companies don't say that. This is the first line of the paragraph that I got from their web site.

'Fundamentally, air, oxygen and nitrogen will all behave exactly the same, in terms of just how much pressure will change for each 10 degrees of temperature change.'

If you can remember anything about your old chemistry class this is one of the 'Gas Laws' which basically says all gases or mixture of gases expand/contract the same amount. (I had to look it up!!).

But the fact that Ni carries no water is the stated reason behind it's use.

Quote:
nitrogen is dry; it has no moisture to contribute extra pressure changes with temperature.
I know at Poli-Form we had an Instafoam 500 foam gun that shot 2 part urethane foam for packaging ..The system required that a pair of 15 gallon tanks full of part a and part b foam be pressurized with nitrogen instead of shop air. The pressures were well within the range of any shop compressor.

.Using Ni from a 220 CF cylinder was mandatory as the chemicals that made up the foam would react with any amount of water (water was readily aabsorbed into the material as well), and make the mixing ratios at the head of the gun all weird. In part due to the water, and also the fact that each hose had a nichrome wire running through it to preheat the material...so any water in the lines there would react unfavorably as well.

For me, this is all academic. I won't put Ni in tires, or spray any paint with it..But the theory and application intrigues me.


Later, mikey
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:32 PM
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For the record, nitrogen is "N".

"Ni" is nickel.
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Old 02-20-2008, 05:38 PM
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You are right but to be really correct Nitrogen is N subscript 2 the same as Oxygen which is O subscript 2 because they are both diatomic molecules which means they can't exist naturally as single atoms. But I didn't know how to type the subscript!! Suppose I could of written 'N2'.

Which is why I shortened it to 'Ni'.
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Old 02-20-2008, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redsdad
For the record, nitrogen is "N".

"Ni" is nickel.

Don't tires get really heavy when you fill them with nickels?
How do you get them in through that little hole.


Mikey
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Old 02-20-2008, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Don't tires get really heavy when you fill them with nickels?
Not as heavy as they are with all that water vapour that supposedly makes them so unstable!!
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2008, 04:27 PM
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Boy there is sure a lot of misconception on the internet about nitrogen. I really don't see a benefit to using it on the street in tires. Sounds like a gimic for people who here about racers using it so it must be good for them too. On this link http://www.nitrogendirect.com/N2Info.htm under aircraft/racecars i think is the best answer. aircraft and racecar brakes can easily get to the point where they are red hot, and the last thing you need is oxygen anywhere near that.

As for painting which is how this all got started, the only benefit I can see is the moisture control. The problem is nitrogen generators are cost prohibitive for even big paint shops. Bottles wouldn't last very long. I don't know, it's probably a good ides but so is a full professional downdraft paint booth and not many of us have those in their shops. Buy a couple of good airdryers/moisture filters and worry about more important tools.
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Speede5 wrote --
As for painting which is how this all got started, the only benefit I can see is the moisture control. The problem is nitrogen generators are cost prohibitive for even big paint shops. Bottles wouldn't last very long. I don't know, it's probably a good ides but so is a full professional downdraft paint booth and not many of us have those in their shops. Buy a couple of good airdryers/moisture filters and worry about more important tools.
I was wondering the exact same thing myself. Wouldn't this

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...6679_200306679

accomplish the same thing as Nitrogen at a fraction of the price?
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2008, 04:27 PM
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The filters or "separators" aren't perfect. The problem is compressed air has SOOOO much moisture in it. The filter has a LOT of work to get it out. First the air needs to be cooled, then ran thru the filter.

That is one of the questions I have, how much better could it be? Have you watched the video at the link I provided?

We are talking much more than a "filter", shooting with the nirtogen virtually eliminates static electricity!!!! The nitrogen is heated to the perfect temp. The atomization of the paint is controled by this process and not the as much the gun! They shoot the product with what looks like zero reduction! It looks like he is pouring paint right out of the can into the gun!

VERY interesting stuff.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 02-23-2008 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 02-23-2008, 07:25 PM
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Brian

I didn't watch the video, spraying paint is not something I do I leave that stuff to the experts.

I felt I must comment on something you said

Quote:
The filters or "separators" aren't perfect. The problem is compressed air has SOOOO much moisture in it. The filter has a LOT of work to get it out. First the air needs to be cooled, then ran thru the filter.
The fact is compressed air is dryer than the ambient air that is being fed into the compressor. Anyone who has used a compressor should know this because the last thing he/she should do after shutting the compressor down is drain the water out of it and the filters/traps in the lines. This should tell you there is LESS water coming out of the compressor than going into it. Compressing air lowers it's dew point making it unable to hold the same amount of moisture.

The reason it is a problem in compressed air machinery is because it can't exist in the compressed air in as much of a quantity as the ambient air and therefore gets displaced as condensation in the tank, lines and tools and will get occasionally displaced and blown out with the compressed air thus ruining your paint job.

Having said that it does not remove ALL the moisture and I can certainly understand there is more reason to use Nitrogen on painting and other processes that are H2O intolerant but having done a bit more research on the tire issue I am convinced that it is another marketing scam to make us pay for something which we presently get for free!!.
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