No clutch shifting - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Hotrodding Basics
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2006, 07:20 AM
montea's Avatar
tryn to learn
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Alberta
Posts: 844
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No clutch shifting

is it bad on a transmission to shift without the clutch? obviously without grinding the gears lol

i tried it couple days ago and its surprisingly really easy to do

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2006, 08:32 AM
CrashFarmer2's Avatar
Dried up in the Drought! :(
 
Last wiki edit: Pre-1980 VIN decoding
Last journal entry: 1978 Chevy pickup battery tray repair
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Iowa
Age: 57
Posts: 528
Wiki Edits: 409

Thanks: 31
Thanked 43 Times in 38 Posts
Truckers do it all the time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2006, 08:36 AM
oldschoolrods's Avatar
Member
 

Last journal entry: Engine Compartment
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Age: 28
Posts: 806
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Doesnt hurt a thing, as crash said most commercial trucks are shifted without the clutch all day.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2006, 08:55 AM
farna's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: AMC V-8s Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Batesburg-Leesville, SC
Age: 52
Posts: 1,636
Wiki Edits: 14

Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Umm... that's not exactly true! It's can be very hard on the synchronizers. In other words, the trans won't last as long before it starts grinding gears and popping out of gear. You CAN learn to shift without the clutch though. It's a matter of getting up to a certain speed then shifting. When you're at the right speed (rpm) for your trans there will be little or no resistance pulling out of the gear it's in and sliding into the next gear. If there is you haven't hit the right speed yet. It will take a little trial and error to find it.

At the right speed all the trans internals are turning at near the same speed, so no gear clash. The synchronizers apply force to the shaft the gear is getting ready to slide over slightly before the actual change, getting the receiving shaft a chance to match speed before the gear slide. There is a an engine speed where everything in the trans is at the same speed or very close. At that point you can shift without the clutch. Don't be fooled though! If there is some resistance but it shifts anyway, that's the synchronizers doing their job. If you shift like that a lot you'll wear the synchros out -- they aren't designed to work with pressure on them from the engine.

I "speed shift" my motorcycle all the time when at speed, but I've been riding a long time and can tell when it's time to shift by ear. At low speeds you'll have to use the clutch -- that's why it's called "speed shifting" -- you have to be reved up pretty good to hit the equilibrium range for the trans.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2006, 11:30 AM
montea's Avatar
tryn to learn
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Alberta
Posts: 844
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
so basicly if its done right its fine and if not then expect to be rebuilding the Tranny.

i have done it quite a bit in the last few days and 1 time i got a big clunk like the tranny was coming up through the floor boards and jsut a cuple mild thumps
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2006, 12:01 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 106
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No-Clutch Shifting

Yup, the big rigs do it all the time, but......

The tranny's are designed for it. Remember, they've got thirteen or more speeds with an engine that has a 500 RPM usable range so the revs don't drop much and aligning the gears at the right RPM is much easier.

Do it on a tranny meant to be de-clutched between gears and, like farna said, you'll be doing a re-build. And not only synchros, you're side loading the bearings on the ttansmission shafts too. Not a good idea IMHO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2006, 01:05 PM
Henry Highrise's Avatar
Lost in the 60's
 
Last wiki edit: Removing stuck fasteners Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dixieland
Age: 69
Posts: 15,189
Wiki Edits: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
I will be looking for your next question in the Transmission forum.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2006, 01:39 PM
montea's Avatar
tryn to learn
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Alberta
Posts: 844
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
haha

The reason i wanted to learn to shift without the clutch is my Throw out bearing keeps going. my original clutch had 130,000 miles on it and it worked fine but it never engaged untill the pedal was almost all the way out so i thought it was worn and better replace it so i dont have any future problems. well i did the clutch wich included flywheel machined, pilot bearing, disk, pressure plate, and Throw out bearing, i got about 3,000 Miles before the Throw out bearing went, it would grind when i put the clutch in. so i swaped it out and it was good and i got about 600 miles out of this one and it starting to do it again so i bought a whole new clutch kit again and going to try that, im getting really tired of keep pulling the trans on the car, will be the 3rd time this winter in the Cold. The clutch is hydralic and its auto adjustes so there is no pressure on the clutch. and i know for sure its not putting pressure on the throw out bearing.
This problem with the car has been bugging me so much i want to just go run it into a Tree
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2006, 01:55 PM
Henry Highrise's Avatar
Lost in the 60's
 
Last wiki edit: Removing stuck fasteners Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dixieland
Age: 69
Posts: 15,189
Wiki Edits: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
You might check to be sure that your slave cylinder is coming back all the way. Also you could have air in the clutch system. You have to remove the slave cyl and leave the line hooked up and hold the cylinder with the bleeder in the up most position to bleed properly. Its a two man job.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2006, 11:22 AM
farna's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: AMC V-8s Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Batesburg-Leesville, SC
Age: 52
Posts: 1,636
Wiki Edits: 14

Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
It's only auto adjusting to a point. Most slave cylinders have an adjustable end. You have to adjust the clutch initially, and FROM THEN ON it's auto adjusting for wear. The clutch not releasing until the pedal is almost all the way out is correct. Otherwise you have a little pressure on the throw-out bearing which causes it to spin all the time and wear out quickly. It doesn't take much pressure, just enough to make it turn. The throw-out just isn't designed to turn all the time, especially with no pressure on it. I know this doesn't sound right, but with light pressure on it it will wear out faster. It's designed to spin with full pressure on it or not spin at all.

If you don't like the height of the clutch pedal you might be able to adjust the stop. Just make sure the rod on the slave cylinder is adjusted correctly to compensate and the throw-out isn't spinning all the time.

Since you're having so much trouble getting it adjusted you might want to take it to a shop, explain the problem, and see if they will adjust it after you replace. They may not, since you'll be ticked at them if it goes out again, and it could be an installation error on your part. Might be time to bite the bullet and let a shop install a new throw-out bearing. Then if it goes you can blame them for adjustment. Your clutch and pressure plate should still be fine though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2006, 11:56 AM
home brew's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Body and exterior tips Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pense, Sk, Canada
Age: 68
Posts: 7,050
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No clutch shifting

I agree with farna. Your initial slave cylinder rod setting is probably not correct. Either try resetting it yourself or have a trans shop install the new throwout bearing and if it is still a problem you can blame it on them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2006, 03:58 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: 1999-2001: Getting it on the road
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 40
Posts: 5,148
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by farna
I "speed shift" my motorcycle all the time when at speed, but I've been riding a long time and can tell when it's time to shift by ear.
But that has nothing to do with this. Motorcycles use a sequential tranny with dog rings. No syncros and a completely different design

You are right though, its tough on synchros. As long as you don't push hard it should be only moderately more wear. Just gently apply pressure and wait for the speeds to match. Kinda a waste though. A clutch is easy to replace compared to new synchros.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2006, 08:18 AM
farna's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: AMC V-8s Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Batesburg-Leesville, SC
Age: 52
Posts: 1,636
Wiki Edits: 14

Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
I didn't realize the MC trans was built that differently, but it does make sense. It's apparently built more like the big rigs -- intended for clutchless or light clutch shifting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2006, 06:37 PM
jim..'s Avatar
That 6 Cylinder Guy
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: yes
Posts: 273
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The big transmissions have no synchromesh,and have a clutch brake for putting it into gear at a dead stop.

Allthough lots of truckers,myself included,do shift without a clutch,all the major manufacturers of drive trains advise against it,spicer,rockwell,eaton,and others,all say that clutchless shifting puts an undue shockload on the whole drive train and causes premature failure.

Thats what they say,but if your driving for 14 hours a day or so,you cant help but get good at it after a while.

Also,big trucks without synchro must be double clutched if using the clutch,that is you push clutch pedal and pull gear lever into neutral,let clutch back up momentarily so input shaft of trans is engaged to crank and turning the same speed as crank,then push clutch in again and pull into next gear.
Same thing for downshifting,only you rev the engine slightly in the middle of the shift.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2006, 11:52 PM
86078's Avatar
you lift,you lose!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 808state
Posts: 209
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i've been shifting my work truck w/o the clutch going on 4 years now...in fact the mechanic actully thanked me the other day fofr making his job easier...only truck in the fleet that hasn't had the clutch changed or adjusted in those 4 years...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Hotrodding Basics posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Borg Warner Shifting problems Spiders Transmission - Rearend 17 12-28-2005 10:38 PM
Clutch problems on 66 Mercury onebadmerc Transmission - Rearend 21 09-23-2005 03:21 PM
Clutch preload? RB401 Transmission - Rearend 0 08-03-2005 09:26 PM
Lakewood Clutch fork clip broke/angle of clutch fork 70bird Transmission - Rearend 3 04-23-2004 07:04 PM
Need Help w/ Clutch Chatter-2002 TA WS6 Josey Wales Transmission - Rearend 2 09-20-2003 07:59 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.