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Old 06-24-2012, 02:04 PM
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No end play in 700-R4

Hey guys, rebuilding a 700-R4 for the first time. When checking end play yesterday I discovered I had none. Tried a #67 selective washer, no end play. Noticed I had the front bearing on upside down, still no end play. Tried removing the 3/4 clutch pack to make sure the input drum was sitting where it should be, still no end play. Tore the whole transmission down again to check if I had a bearing on upside down or something, but everything checked out ok. Even though I have no end playwith the pump torqued down, the input drum still spins by hand in both directions.

Here is the ONLY thing I can think of (see attached picture). My trans is a 1989 (9YNM081H), it has at some point in the past been rebuilt. Part number for the input drum that came out of the trans upon teardown is 8654410. During buildup of the input drum I found my forward clutch pack had bearly any clearance and my 3/4 clutch pack (8 clutch BorgWarner from Dana @ Probuilt) stacked up above the snap ring groove. Got the newer style input drum, 8663097 and everything fit. I have not tried to put the old input drum and check end play. For what it's worth I had .036" endplay before tear down (#68 selective weasher).

Also let me note that I have changed 90% of the hardparts. Only thing that is original is my output shaft and low/reverse piston. Everything else has been changed I am also running a case saver, the plate style that bolts to a modified low/reverse support. Instructions I found for the case saver said for 700r4/4l60e applications to run a .030" spacer between the output ring gear and bearing. My case saver did not come with a spacer, but I did accquire one and attemped to run it, but the output ring gear then contacted waved steel in the low/reverse clutch pack. It has been discarded, read: shim has not been installed. My case bushing is pressed in just below flush, the bearing seemed to sit fine when I checked last night. This is the only other thing I can think of.

I talked to Dana @ Probuilt last night. He says he has only seen it a few times in his life, but sometimes it is necessary to run a 2nd pump gasket to get end play. He laso suggested and flat sanding my selective washer if the pump gasket doesn't do it. Any other suggestions?
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Last edited by tayto; 06-24-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:36 AM
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I had the same problem,I also flat sanded the shim,it takes hours,I used a magnet to hold on to the shim.What I did also was to take some martieral off of the stator shaft where it sits on the shim by using a fine file and using a rubber plug inside the shaft to keep filing out and newspaper taped around the pump also to keep filings out.Making damm sure to file straight across the end of the shaft.I ended up having to re chamfer the Bushing so it wouldn't damage the 3 Teflon sealing rings.I filed then wraped so 400 grit around the file to Finnish it up.Then shop vac the filing an removed plug an newspaper.I know this isn't the best way to make it fit but I got it in their.I don't know if you know but when test fitting you can leave off the big O ring that goes around the pump & don't put in the reverse input drum.Just put in the pump,bolt it down & check.I used the road race kit from Danna.I've got a 1000 miles on it now & no problems.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:41 PM
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I added a second pump gasket and now have .011" end play. Going to swap in some of my old parts to see if I can isolate what is bigger. I really don't think it's something missasembled but rather too big or perhaps a combination of a few things too big. Unless a bushing was not pressed in far enough and is holding something up...
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:09 AM
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Well, I believe I figured out my no end play problem. After spending a few hours tearing down the trans and building it back up with the original parts I discovered I had end play. So then I replaced one part at a time to see which part was causing the issue. Turns out, none of the parts were. At least not enough to cause a no end play situation. I had been checking my end play with the transmission on the bench (horizontally) and would get almost no end play. However, when I checked the end play with the trans vertical, (trans supported by the bottom of the case so the output shaft is suspended), I discovered I went from bearly any end play to actually HAVING END PLAY! Haven't checked it with a dial indicator yet (need to make up a steel bracket so I have something to attach my magnetic dial indicator base to), but I am definately in the ball park!

I have NO IDEA why it is like this and I hope it will not be a problem... It is almost like the input shaft is hanging up on the bushings in the stator shaft when it is sitting horizontally. Any ideas?
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:45 PM
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I was going to comment that frequently when you replace the stator bushings in the pump that it is difficult to check end clearance as the new bushings will not allow the input shaft to move up & down very easily. Typically, if you can turn the input shaft by hand you will be alright. Having replaced a considerable amount of parts inside your trans, it was smart of you to check end clearance.

I always check the clearance with the trans supported such that the input drum is pointed straight towards the ceiling. This allows the weight of the lower internal components (from input planet down) to ride low in the case so that you can get a true indication of how much clearance you have. Remember, between the lower section, and the input section, your clearance is between the input sprag assembly (inside the 3-4 clutch drum housing), and the face of the input planet as it sits inside the sunshell. Horizontally is almost impossible to check it, or get a true reading.

Glad you figured it out.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:22 PM
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I wonder if because I don't have the 3/4 clutch pack and input reverse drum in that its allowing some parts to sit hard on one side (when sitting horizontally) and thus giving an improper reading. Live and learn. This is my first time rebuilding a transmission and the learning curve has been huge. The time and headache will be worth it once its running I hope. I will definitely build a holding fixture next time around!
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:07 PM
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i use one of those green plastic garbage cans and a sheet of plywood with a small hole in it to rebuild transmissions. the bench in the garage usuualy has a trans on it when i have to do a different one.

i do whatever brings in da money!
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:31 PM
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I just noticed the pic where you are comparing the difference between the 2 input drums. As you have already figured out, that difference will have NO bearing on end clearance. The reverse drum will sit on top of that input drum and the position, or depth, that the reverse drum sits is controlled by the location of the bearing & shim at the base of the shaft. Now if the depth, or location, of the position where the bearing & shim sit are different between the 2 drums, that will affect end clearance as it affects where the pump stator makes contact.

For future reference, you can check end clearance with the 3-4 drum leaving out the reverse drum entirely. Put the 3-4 drum--minus the 3-4 frictions & steels--in place on top of the assembled lower assembly. Then take your assembled pump, minus the pump o-ring, and set it in place on top of the input drum. Check clearance. Adjust shim as needed. Then add reverse drum for final assembly. Only hard part about doing it this way is that it is harder to remove the pump without the reverse drum in place to pry against. Might have to use a slide hammer to pop it free of the case. Of course you still have to have the case oriented upward (bell housing facing upward) to get a true correct reading.
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawabuggy View Post
I just noticed the pic where you are comparing the difference between the 2 input drums. As you have already figured out, that difference will have NO bearing on end clearance. The reverse drum will sit on top of that input drum and the position, or depth, that the reverse drum sits is controlled by the location of the bearing & shim at the base of the shaft. Now if the depth, or location, of the position where the bearing & shim sit are different between the 2 drums, that will affect end clearance as it affects where the pump stator makes contact.
I figured this out once I actually measured where the bearing sits on the 2 drums. My bad.

Quote:
For future reference, you can check end clearance with the 3-4 drum leaving out the reverse drum entirely. Put the 3-4 drum--minus the 3-4 frictions & steels--in place on top of the assembled lower assembly. Then take your assembled pump, minus the pump o-ring, and set it in place on top of the input drum. Check clearance. Adjust shim as needed. Then add reverse drum for final assembly. Only hard part about doing it this way is that it is harder to remove the pump without the reverse drum in place to pry against. Might have to use a slide hammer to pop it free of the case. Of course you still have to have the case oriented upward (bell housing facing upward) to get a true correct reading.
This is exacly how I was/am checking the end play. About the only thing I'd do differently next time is put on the input drum seals on AFTER I am happy with my end play. I didn't seem to visually damage the seals depsite how many times I had the pump in&out, so I am just going to run them. I had no trouble removing the pump by hand FWIW.

Checked the end play tonight, with a #68 selective washer and I got .017". I think I am going to run this, #69 might be a bit tighter but I don't have one. What do you guys think? I forgot to check the fit with the reverse drum on, but I do not see any issue as it does not affect end play as far as I have been told. I am hoping to have the trans back together this Saturday (fingers crossed).
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Old 06-30-2012, 03:06 PM
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tayto, the #68 will be fine to run as is.

In regards to checking end clearance, and the teflon sealing rings on the turbine shaft (4), and stator shaft (2 large ones), your are absolutely right to LEAVE THEM OFF WHILE YOU ARE CHECKING & CORRECTING YOUR CLEARANCES.

If you put the 4 smaller ones on the turbine shaft, it is not a problem. But if you have the 2 large ones on the stator, and you have the reverse drum in place, you will most definitely damage them forcing them into, and then ripping them back out of, the reverse drum. So, If you have the large rings on the stator, leave the reverse drum out of the equation while checking end clearance, or alternately, leave the the rings off until you are ready for final assembly.
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