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-   -   Is it no good to have a High volume oil pump? (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/no-good-have-high-volume-oil-pump-132290.html)

Calderone 01-25-2008 10:27 AM

Is it no good to have a High volume oil pump?
 
Is it no good to have a High volume oil pump?
i bought one,high volume,is it no good ?
some people say that the pan can get dry and cause the lack of lube.-
In fact they sell oil flow to the top restrictors
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Chevy-V8-Ren...QQcmdZViewItem
Is it good to have a HV Oil pump ?

CNC BLOCKS NE 01-25-2008 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calderone
Is it no good to have a High volume oil pump?
i bought one,high volume,is it no good ?
some people say that the pan can get dry and cause the lack of lube.-
In fact they sell oil flow to the top restrictors
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Chevy-V8-Ren...QQcmdZViewItem
Is it good to have a HV Oil pump ?

It all depends on your bearing clearances rod, main and cam and from there lifter bore clearance. 99% of the street performance engines we build e use standard volume high pressure pumps.

On all our engines build we line hone all our blocks and hone the big end of the rods and try to maintain .002 to .0025 on the rods and mains for street performance and if the cam housing bores are over size we line bore them to the correct size.

fitzwell 01-25-2008 11:00 AM

Stock.
When i build a motor it gets a stock pump. Stock that has been disassembled, carefully de-burred, smoothed, polished, etc & reassembled. Pay attention to the clearances in the motor...no worries.

Double_v23 01-25-2008 11:08 AM

I know it is a good idea in big block chevy's, high pressure...no, high volume...yes.

I increased the flow of oil to the heads to better lube the roller rockers and valves/retainers/ and so I only run about 50 psi, but you can be sure oil is flowing like crazy to all the other parts.

But with .0015-.002 clearances on the small blocks I have built I have never had a problem with the standard pumps. They run 60-70 psi all day long, I usually eliminate the casting flash in the oil galleries and return valleys so that the oil returns to the pan faster though.

Calderone 01-25-2008 11:22 AM

which casting flash ?
thanx

curtis73 01-25-2008 11:39 AM

It also depends on the engine. For instance, chevys with their priority main oiling, high volume is great. It doesn't necessarily need high volume, but it can be a nice safety margin. For BBFs with proirity cam oiling, the mains sometimes get starved and I'd rather see a high pressure pump in them for performance applications.

But; here's my probem with high pressure oil. 60-70 psi is all you need for 7000 rpms. Anything higher than that and the bypass valve will open and send oil around the filter. That means the engine is getting unfiltered oil. You can change the bypass spring pressure to prevent the valve from opening, but 80 psi is about the point where filters explode or the o-ring seals blow out.

High pressure is typically reserved for really high RPM applications like racing. 10 psi per 1000 rpms is all you need, so unless you're revving over 7000 rpms, don't worry about it.

Calderone 01-25-2008 11:44 AM

wait wait ...

High pressure or High volume ?
or its the same thing ?

Double_v23 01-25-2008 12:01 PM

1 Attachment(s)
They are most definately two different things.

Volume is the amount of oil that is pumped
Pressure is the PSI of the oil that is being pumped

Below shows where the flash was on the BBC it didn't take much to remove it, you can also smooth out the rough casting in the lifter valley. to give the oil a smooth path back to the pan...some people even coat it.

There are also places in the head that you can do, the holes where you can see down into the lifter valley usually can be opened a bit.

Rick WI 01-25-2008 01:45 PM

What you will see with the high volume pump is higher pressure at idle and low load conditions. Assuming you use a standard pressure spring it will bypass the extra volume at the the rated pressure just like a standard volume pump would. Basically no drawback then with a high volume pump and standard pressure spring.

There should be two springs included with your pump, assuming you order the same ones we do.

oldbogie 01-25-2008 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calderone
Is it no good to have a High volume oil pump?
i bought one,high volume,is it no good ?
some people say that the pan can get dry and cause the lack of lube.-
In fact they sell oil flow to the top restrictors
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Chevy-V8-Ren...QQcmdZViewItem
Is it good to have a HV Oil pump ?

In the case of engine oil pumps pressure and volume are related.

The engine is a controlled oil leak, the pump cannot develop any pressure until the volume it's putting out exceeds the volume that can leak thru the clearances. To get more pressure, it has to deliver more volume. Ultimately pressure is controlled by the volume leak past clearances and the a "relief valve". The relief valve adds to the leakage past the clearances thus maintaining a certain pressure.

Pressure is variable to the viscosity (weight) of oil used, the temperature of the oil, and the speed of the pump. Starting backwards, at idle the pump is turning slowly and pressure will be less, so much so, that when the engine is hot the relief valve is probably closed and pressure is simply established by the leakage thru the clearances. Conversely, at high speed the pressure increases because the pump is pushing more oil (volume) into the engine. At some point the volume/pressure will exceed the relief valve's spring and it will be pushed open reducing system volume and pressure. This is also affected by the thickness of the oil. Cold oil of any given "weight" has more viscosity or thickness than when hot. The thickness of the oil determines how fast both the pump can pick it out of the pan and how fast it leaks past the clearances. Thick oil results in abnormally high pressure at the pump which causes the relief valve to open. As the oil heats, it becomes thinner which is easier for the pump to pick out of the pan and it leaks faster thru the clearances. This reduces pressure and it's highly likely that the pressure relief valve will close. The same thing happens for the weight of oil in regard to leakage past the clearances and the setting of the pressure relief valve. All these variables occur at the same time.

Note that the relationship of pressure and volume is different in an engine than in a closed hydraulic system, because an engine constantly leaks oil, a hydraulic system doesn't or at least isn't supposed to leak.

A high volume pump given say a relief valve setting of 60 psi, will provide a higher hot idle pressure because of the excess volume it moves at any given speed. This is important for a competition or other hard working engine as normal idle oil pressures tend to be low and don't provide enough protection when a high load is suddenly dumped on the engine till enough RPM is built high enough to supply relief valve pressure on the system. This is a case of being able to momentarily overrun the oil supply at the bearings. The down side of a high volume pump is at high speed where there is so much excess flow from the pump the relief valve is always open to vent off the excess volume and pressure. This uses a lot engine power for no useful purpose and heats the oil unnecessarily.

A high pressure pump assumes that the volume it can deliver is far above the engines clearance leakage rate, a stiffer spring is used in the relief valve. This may prove to be an ultimate pressure that can't be achieved till the engine, thus the pump, is spinning quite fast. Again there are several variables occurring at one. Not only is the oil's thickness a concern in the ultimate pump output but so is the pumps capacity which is variable by it's operating speed and its size. Faster delivers more oil than slower. Bigger delivers more oil than smaller.

In the end pressure comes down to how much more oil the pump can deliver into the oil galleys against how fast it leaks past the clearances. Given everything above this paragraph, larger clearances leak more oil than tight clearances. This and pump wear is why a high mileage car will have lower oil pressure than when it was new. This is why or at least one reason why, a competition engine with wide clearances needs a larger volume pump to maintain sufficient pressure against the greater leakage. The other reason for a competition engine is that pressure gap between idle or dropped throttle oil pressure and the sudden need under hard acceleration, this gets into gear selection among other things. Take a road racer that comes of the corner in to high a gear, the engine has too few revs and is suddenly exposed to a fully open throttle. It's very possible that the high lugging load will blow the oil out of the rods and that the pump will not yet be supplying enough volume to make up the loss. Next thing you know it spun a bearing or worse.

For me, I build engines with excess oil pump capacity and my customers live with the slight power loss and an oil cooler. I have found over the years that this results in a lot fewer crankshaft bearing failures. I like to see about 40-45 psi at a hot idle rather than the factory's 15 to 20. For a street engine I usually pop off the relief at 60-70. Beyond that subscription to 10-15 psi per 1000 RPM above 6000 is OK. I run blower and nitrous engines about 10 psi higher in all cases since these devices can really put a lot of load on the rods and mains very quickly.

Bogie

66chevystepside 01-25-2008 02:09 PM

I have a hv pump in my sbc, oil pressure is great and I have never had any problem when just cruising around or going all out with it. just my $.02, your results may vary...

cliff tate 01-25-2008 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curtis73
It also depends on the engine. For instance, chevys with their priority main oiling, high volume is great. It doesn't necessarily need high volume, but it can be a nice safety margin. For BBFs with proirity cam oiling, the mains sometimes get starved and I'd rather see a high pressure pump in them for performance applications.

But; here's my probem with high pressure oil. 60-70 psi is all you need for 7000 rpms. Anything higher than that and the bypass valve will open and send oil around the filter. That means the engine is getting unfiltered oil. You can change the bypass spring pressure to prevent the valve from opening, but 80 psi is about the point where filters explode or the o-ring seals blow out.

High pressure is typically reserved for really high RPM applications like racing. 10 psi per 1000 rpms is all you need, so unless you're revving over 7000 rpms, don't worry about it.

when relief opens oil does not by pass the filter. cliff

CNC BLOCKS NE 01-25-2008 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curtis73
It also depends on the engine. For instance, chevys with their priority main oiling, high volume is great. It doesn't necessarily need high volume, but it can be a nice safety margin. For BBFs with proirity cam oiling, the mains sometimes get starved and I'd rather see a high pressure pump in them for performance applications.

But; here's my probem with high pressure oil. 60-70 psi is all you need for 7000 rpms. Anything higher than that and the bypass valve will open and send oil around the filter. That means the engine is getting unfiltered oil. You can change the bypass spring pressure to prevent the valve from opening, but 80 psi is about the point where filters explode or the o-ring seals blow out.

High pressure is typically reserved for really high RPM applications like racing. 10 psi per 1000 rpms is all you need, so unless you're revving over 7000 rpms, don't worry about it.

On all the SBC's we build we plug the oil filter bypass and use the NAPA 1061 or the WIX 51061 filter and so far no exploding filters or seals blowing out.

fiscus 01-27-2008 10:11 PM

If your bearing clearences are big, like .003" then the high volume pump will help your oil pressure at idle.

Calderone 01-31-2008 03:56 PM

i got my stock pump today
i have 2 now
HV pump
Stock pump
i will install the stock one
what u think ?


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