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no hair left to pull out

2K views 31 replies 3 participants last post by  EOD Guy 
#1 ·
Hi everyone, im trying to get my 76 camaro back on the road after a bbc conversion. i have tried to add a few new electrical systems and now i cannot get the starter to work. due to heat soak concerns i have decided to go with a ford remote solenoid. i have also added a holley blue electric pump with a relay and oil pressure switch. just to make things a touch more complicated, my ignition system is thru a push button because 20 years ago i had an issue with the car not starting and bypassed the start with a push button. everything had work fine until the bb conversion. i also have a msd 6al box but in this wiring was not getting power beyond that so i have since gone back to std hei.

anyways, the problem right now is that when i push the button the ford solenoid clicks but the starter motor does not engage the flywheel. also, if this is any indication for you guys, my headlights and brake lights are not working. i will try to add a drawing at the end to clarify.

so this is how i have it wired...
-1 ga wire from the battery to the large post on the left side of the ford solenoid.
-from that terminal is the #2 circuit feeding the cars main fuse box and ...
-a wire feeding the circuit breaker for the relay controlling my oil pressure switch and fuel pump.
-on the "s" terminal of the ford solenoid is the wire going back to one side of the push button. the other side of the push button is going a switched power source.
-there is also a wire feeding the "S" terminal on the Oil Pressure Switch. it says that this terminal is to only get power during cranking.
-from the large post on the right side of the ford solenoid is a 1 ga wire feeding the large post on the mini starter.
-i then have a jumper wire connecting the large post to the blade terminal (which use to be for the starter wire "S")
-one concern is the ground. the ford solenoid is grounded thru the bracket and i have the bracket bolted to an aluminum plate on the firewall. to ground the solenoid i bolted a braided ground strap to the bracket and ran it to the frame. i was diligent about cleaning off the frame to be sure to have good clean metal making contact.
-so as i stated earlier i fed the circuit breaker for the relay from the large post of the ford solenoid.
-the relays blue wire #30 attaches to the out post of the circuit breaker
-the white wire #86 goes to the "P" terminal (sometimes referred to as "C") on the Oil Pressure Switch for 12v power
-the yellow wire #87 would normally run to the fuel pump, however, i have chosen to put in a mini fuse block to control the fan and fuel pump. so in this case i have the yellow #87 (NO) feeding the mini fuse block. then from the fuse block to the pump
-the black wire #85 is tied in to the same ground on the frame as the ford solenoid.
-lastly for the relay, as a little wrinkle i have taken the red wire #87a (NC) and ran it to the "BAT" terminal on the distributor cap. this is because i used the switched power that normally goes there to feed power to the push button. i suppose i could run that wire to the cap and feed the push button starter from the mini fuse block.
-back to the oil pressure switch.
-the "P" or "C" from the oil pressure switch to the relay white wire #86
-the "S" going to the "S" post on the ford solenoid for cranking voltage
-the "I" coming from "ACC" terminal on fuse block inside the car for switched ignition power.
-i have a ground from the neg battery terminal to the frame and to the fender.
-and ground from the ford solenoid bracket to the frame.
-at this time there is not a ground to the block
so when i turn on the key and push the button i hear the fan come on and smell the fuel. i can hear the remote solenoid click but the starter motor does nothing. also no head lights or brake lights.
thanks for your time!
Keith

i have tried to attach the drawing, if you cant view it let me know and i will try again.
thanks
 

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#5 ·
thanks for your response. i had thought that it was probably a grounding issue, however i was thinking that maybe it was somehow related to the ground of the remote solenoid. i will go out and try the block. as for the oil switch, i have it set up as "P" to the relay, "I" to the key (switched power) and "S" to the small terminal on the remote solenoid. according to your info i need to flip the I and the S correct. i was thinking the "s" terminal on the solenoid would be "NO" (closes during cranking)and the "I" from the accessories would be "NC"
"I" terminal = NO -
"S" terminal = NC
"P" terminal = Common
as for the hei, i was trying to power it from the red wire #87 a on the relay which says "NC". i can try flipping it so the push button was fed by the relay and the hei was direct.

thanks again for your time
Keith
 
#7 ·
If the wire to the "I" terminal on your pump is the accessory side of the switch it may never start the pump. The Accessory side of the switch is OFF while cranking so as soon as you get oil pressure and are still cranking the fuel pump will shut down.
 
#8 · (Edited)
thanks for the reply. ive definitely found some confusion in the terminology used between start and ignition. i was thinking that start(or "S" terminal on the oil switch) was just power to the starter motor when cranking.
and ignition is 12v power to all sources on that circuit when the key is turned to the "ON" position. however in all the drawings i have, they say "TO IGNITION SWITCH" (NO) and "TO STARTER MOTOR" (NC).
when i tried that my fuel pump started up before i hit the push button.
can we clarify a few things please?
(NO) means that no current will flow thru until switch activated
(NC) means there is current flowing
and
"IGNITION SWITCH" (contrary to what i thought) refers to hot when cranking??? (NO)
"TO STARTER WIRE" means constant power from starter??? (NC)

i then get confused on how to tie in the push button starter. since the #6 circuit on my fuse block no longer works i had to work around turning the car over by using the push button. the push button is tied into the switched power source that feeds my distributor. #3 circuit in the wiring schematics. so that is the source in and the other wire goes to the "S" terminal on the solenoid. so if i want the "I" (NO) "IGNITION" source be from the push button would that not be the same as feeding it from the "S" terminal on the solenoid?
 
#9 ·
To starter means from the starter terminal on the ignition switch or to the starter solenoid activation wire - the small terminal on the starter solenoid - not the battery wire.
When the switch is in the "RUN" position there are two active hot wires. The wire to the ignition and the wires to the accessories. The wire you want to go to the "NO" (ignition) side of the switch has to be OFF when the switch is turned to "ACC" and ON when you turn the switch to "RUN" and "START".
Your "PRIMER" switch connects from a fused battery + wire that is on when the switch is in the "RUN" position. It can be from the "ACC" accessory side of the switch because it isn't used when starting the car but before you crank the engine to prime the carburetor.

Is that clear to you?
 
#12 ·
lol clear as mud! you lost me at primer switch. thats a new term i havent come across in all this. but i had the "S" NC terminal on the oil switch going to the "S" terminal on the solenoid. so i had it right, but in my mind i think of that source as a NO source. my thinking is that when the car is running it is open any time the push button or key is not being activated.
 
#10 ·
I'd be happy to amend your drawing, the one I posted was as your original was drawn, all tho I moved some components around to make it flow better (wires went to the same points)

NO stands for "Normally Open" so when there is no outside force current cannot flow thru it... or in the "OFF" state. When an outside force is applied, it goes to the "ON" state and current can flow thru it

NC stands for "Normally Closed" so when there is no outside force current can flow thru it... or in the "ON" state. When an outside force is applied, it goes to the "OFF" state and current can NOT flow thru it

As far as the oil switch goes... it doesn't function exactly like a relay.... Oil closes the contacts.

Let's say "S" terminal is NC and "P" is Common.... this will allow electricity to flow thru it, regardless if the engine is running. This allows the fuel pump to receive juice when the engine is cranking.... or "hot in crank".

"I" terminal is still open because the oil pressure hasn't closed it yet.... the engine starts and oil pressure closes the switch.... now the fuel pump gets juice from the "I" terminal source or "hot in run"

Ign has to be labeled "hot in start" or "hot in run" for one to tell, as there is no definitive label and the mean two different positions of the key.
 
#14 ·
thats great! although i must say it is quite a bit different than i exspected it to be. did you mean to omit the relay? i used the relay because it was in the holley diagram for wiring with an oil safety switch.
can i take the #3 to a terminal block and feed the push button and hei both from there?
does it change much if i try to re introduce my msd box or can i just install it as per their wiring diagram?
gm 4 pin hei.

where do you make these diagrams, they look great!
keith
 
#13 · (Edited)
He is confusing your starter switch with a primer switch. Primer switches are used to prime the fuel system before the cranking starts etc..... two completely different things. The "S" terminal on the starter is NO or dead until it gets juice from the starter switch (in your case push button) .

As far as your dia, change the one(s) I posted, take a pic of it and I'll draw it how ever you like.

Here is my engine bay diagram in my Camaro
 

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#15 · (Edited)
You can use a relay anywhere, it's usually used when switching high amp loads (takes the load off the smaller amp switch) Like a fuel pump, Since a fuel pump normally draws a higher amp etc..... you could use the oil switch to turn on/off the fuel pump.... in your case you have the fuel pump protected under a 7.5 amp fuse.... the oil switch can handle 7.5a without any issues. I'll draw it in if you'd like
 

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#17 ·
so that pic is closer to what i expected until i saw the relay use #87a for the fuse box. but 87 is (NO) and #87 is (NC). i am doing my best to keep up with you. unfortunately, it takes pictures for me to follow
thanks for your time, its greatly appreciated!
keith
 
#19 ·
I don't recommend you run the feed to the dizzy through anything but a fuse or C/B, IMO.....it should be a home run to the ign switch. If it is fed through anything else and that fails your motor will shut off. If it's spliced into another component and that component shorts and blows a fuse.... your motor will shut off.

Electrically it will work..... but.... been stranded one to many times, so I won't do it.
 
#23 ·
ok, so i think i will go to the garage with a beer, listen to some fire works and start to rearrange some wires. one last question, with the old 350 setup i used an msd box. however, i made the mistake of not marking some of the wires from the box and dist cap. i have a 4 pin hei and i have the wiring diagram for the box. my question is this... is it possible that i used the #3 pink wire as they say to, with a jumper wire to the red feed from the msd box,
AND, lol, used the wire to the push button from the BAT terminal on the cap. after everything else ive learned today this doesnt seem possible. but i cannot for the life of me figure out where else i could have plugged that in. i dont think the msd box would work if i hooked the push button wire up to it and the #3 wire to the cap. any thoughts?
thanks again, have a great night!
keith
 
#26 ·
The purpose of the relay is a remote On/Off switch..... your mini fuse block would be dead until the relay is energized by the key. The benefit of the relay..... all the high amp draws from the fuel pump and fan are now on a shorter run of wire in the engine compartment (that's where i'd mount the relay) Terminal 87a will be hot with the key off as it's drawing pwr from an "Always Hot" source. I wouldn't connect the oil switch to an "always Hot" source..... Very easy to touch it while working on the vehicle and sparks will fly.....don't ask how I know this.....lol
 
#27 ·
I installed a jumper jack on my set up. I used a female banana plug in a box (on my fire wall) an ran a separate wire to the "C" terminal on the oil safety switch. I have a jumper wire that I keep in the trunk, with a male banana plug on one end and a sring loaded battery clip on the other. My oil switch has failed on me and I was stranded...... now hook up my jumper and the fuel pump will run and get me home. I did forget to pull the jumper once, after I got home...... pumped 2 gal of fuel into the crankcase......... I'll never forget that again....lol
 
#28 ·
ok, so lets see if i understand whats happening with the changes.
-the fuel pump is no longer on the fuse(now circuit breaker) and is the common terminal "P" from the oil pressure switch, (which is an option they show in the how to diagram.)
-the #87 NO terminal from the relay still feeds the fuse box, but now not the fuel pump. instead the oil pressure switch. the fan keeps its fuse, what about the oil pressure switch? does it keep the same fuse?
-the push button and the #86 relay terminal are sharing 12v switched power. -i could use the junction box now for this.
-the switched power before was for the oil pressure switch.
-in the last few drawings you have used the "I" terminal on the remote starter. i havent seen this used in any of the wiring diagrams. why that terminal and not the "S"?
thanks?:thumbup:
 
#30 ·
The fuel pump circuit is protected by the fuse and a C/B (C/B isn’t really needed but thought you wanted it)

Test your Ford solenoid…. When you energize it does the “I” terminal become hot? If it does I’d use that terminal, if it doesn’t just use the “S” terminal
 
#31 ·
thanks for all the help. i got it working, temporarily! lol fuel filter is leaking now, i will replace it and then hopefully full throttle a head. EOD GUY you were a great help! i didnt wire it exactly like the last pic, but you definitely hit the nail on the head with the ground cable to the block. i also noticed that my fuse block in the car is slightly different then the one i had in the pic. turns out i was running off the acc terminal not the ign. i used that terminal to feed a small terminal junction block and from there i fed the push button and the oil pressure switch. the #3 wire i sent directly to the cap as you suggested.
Thanks for your patience!
Keith
 
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