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Old 03-21-2013, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseFink View Post
You say the Morel and Callies lifters are restricted yet you say your circle track have no restrictors.

See what I mean:

Again, no definite answer.

I know how much valve covers are flooded with oil when using solid lifters because back in the early 1960's before GM introduced edge orifice solid lifters in 1965, when I adjusted the valve lash on my '56 Chevy e/w with the old Duntov cam, the oil pump would squirt oil over the fenders at a 600 RPM idle. In 1965, the edge orifice lifters that was used in the fuel injected Corvettes stopped that problem but then the rocker balls started failing, especially with high load valve springs...then to preven burned up rocker pivot balls, Harland Sharp introduced full roller rocker arms.

History 101:
GM introduced the hydraulic lifters with "piddle valve" in 1965 and by 1968, all GM hydraulic lifters were equipped with piddle valves. . The lifter with piddle valves were lifters GM called "high-ball" lifters because they had a secondary spring under the check ball valve that pushed the ball tighter against the plunger hole. The aftermarket called those lifters "anti-pump up" lifters.

There is "usually" no problem with flooding the valve covers with standard travel hydraulic lifters because they are restricted by the plunger and internal valving. The reduced travel, limited travel or short travel hydraulic lifters like I prefer, require restricted push rods because they will pump oil to the valve covers at high RPM just like solid lifters. They have no piddle valve to prevent lifter pump up and valve float because those type lifters have nowhere to pump up to. That is because the lifter pre-load with limited travel, short travel, reduced travel hydraulic lifters is .001" to .005".

If you want to know if your engine will have a problem with excessive oil pumping to the valve covers and reduced pressure in the crank with solid lifters, it is easy to find out by spinning the engine up to 5 grand with one valve cover off. !! Or you can just set the valve lash with the engine running and see if you will take a bath in oil. .
I don't run restrictors in block because the god dam roller lifters are restrected already.

And I can tell you don't know much about roller lifters because John Callies builds Morel lifters which are sold by Lunati.

Why the hell are you comparing a flat tappet lifter to a Roller lifter that like comparing apples to oranges !!!

Once again on Lunati Roller lifters the oil hole is on the side of the lifter not in the oil band and being on the side of the lifter oil flow works off from the lifter bore clearance which restricts the oil to the push rods Period. Plus if its a pressure feed lifter to oil the wheels why would you want to restrick oil the wheels?????????????????

On my solid lifters for my circle track engines I use PPC tool steel lifters and again the oil hole is on the side of the lifter not in the band and on the lifter the feed the odd bank I groove between the oil hole and the band cause those rockers don't seem to get enough oil to the springs.

Where the hell are you going to put 7 quarts of oil in the valve covers or even 5 quarts of oil. Take the valve covers off and hyd flat tappet engine while running. I have built circle track engines for a lot of years with HYD cams and lifters and so far have not seen any oiling issues to date!!!!!

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Old 03-21-2013, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
Well most oil pumps can produce more oil than the engine can use. With dry sump and the pump at max you will need restrictors. If your using normal oil pressure levels with more volume you should be ok as the engine is already setup for normal operation with normal pumps.

Dart does not setup the blocks for it because its not always the best solution to run over 100 psi of oil pressure. If your bottom end will need the extra oil pressure to live then you will need the restrictors so you can max up the pressure to keep the bearings floating under a much higher load than stock engine will see.

I do not disagree with what has already been said just wanted to mention Dart may have a number of oil pressure psi that restrictors will be needed. Usally 100 psi and above you will surely need to limit the top end oiling and other places. If the block is not machined for them and they dont think they should be used then they have another solution to the problem. Usally they havet the oil passages redesigned so its not the concern it would be with a stock block. Either you can run high pressure without issue or the block flows more oil and does not need excessive pressure for most application.
I build alot of engines and deal with alot of shops and to date I don't know of any one running a 100 pounds plus oil pressure wet or dry sump.

A hundred pound of oil pressure on a wet sump you will kill the dist and cam gear.

Restrictors are built in to the most roller lifters now.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:30 AM
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Here is some good info

Oil restrictors SBC - Yellow Bullet Forums

http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/file/296-302.pdf
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:53 AM
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Oil

CNC Blocks...inspite of the disagreement between a few members...I have picked up some useful information from you. I was told to use restrictors in my stroker due to loss of available oil to the crank under high RPM's...but never told why that would occur. I had actually believed that my solid rollers would pump less oil then hydraulics into my valve springs. So, you say that I really didn't need them at all because the roller lifters were restrictive enough? Is that the short of it?
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by snakebit68 View Post
CNC Blocks...inspite of the disagreement between a few members...I have picked up some useful information from you. I was told to use restrictors in my stroker due to loss of available oil to the crank under high RPM's...but never told why that would occur. I had actually believed that my solid rollers would pump less oil then hydraulics into my valve springs. So, you say that I really didn't need them at all because the roller lifters were restrictive enough? Is that the short of it?

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

What guys who don't know how the roller lifters oil is they are basing their experiance on flat tappet lifters, Which is wrong !!!

Again your lifters have the orface on the side of the lifter and not in the oil band oil flow works off the bore clearance and because it does its restricted.

Also I use solid flat tappet tool steel lifters with the same oiling, The orface is on the side of the lifter and not in the band and on those lifters they are to restrictive. And put a groove between the orface and the band to generate more oil to the rockers and springs for cooling.

Again HYD lifter flow much more oil the rollers and to date on my engines flooding the valve covers is BS as you can't put 5 or more quarts of oil in the valve covers.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:37 PM
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oil

LOL...it would be squirting out the PCV and breather!
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:38 PM
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Standard hydraulic roller or hydraulic flat tappet lifters do not need restricted push rods. They are self restricting by the internal piston and piddle disc valve under the push rod seat. .

However, limited travel, short travel or reduced travel hydraulic roller or flat tappets will likely require restricted push rods because they have only .050" total plunger travel and are designed to operate at high RPM without pumping up. High performance and racing engine builders have been restricting the flow to the valve covers since 1955. In the early daze, some used pipe cleaners in the push rods and some pushed a .080" wire into the push rods. Now we can buy push rods with .040" or .030" hole in one end as the restriction.

Where did anyone get the idea that valve covers will hold 5 quarts of oil?

On our SB Chevy Jr.Fuel dragster, we used various mechanical flat tappet and mechanical roller camshafts. With either of those type camshafts, the engine would puke oil out the breathers at high RPM. That is why sanctioning bodies require oil breathers to be piped to the exhaust header so oil would evacuate and burn the oil in the exhaust header rather than puke oil on the track. Even after we installed lifter oil gallery restriction, the rules still required us to maintain the oil evacuation system, as a precaution. Lifter gallery oil restriction in not necessary if you use the preferred method by using restricted push rods.

There is 4 quarts of oil in the upper parts of the ENGINE, not just the valve covers, above 5,000 RPM and that leaves less than a quart in a stock oil pan. Acceleration or cornering can cause the remaining quart to move away from oil pump pick up screen. That is why racing engines need larger capacity oil pans with baffles or use dry sump oiling. You can reduce the oil in the upper part of the engine and increase the pressure in the crank by simply using restricted push rods.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseFink View Post
Standard hydraulic roller or hydraulic flat tappet lifters do not need restricted push rods. They are self restricting by the internal piston and piddle disc valve under the push rod seat. .

However, limited travel, short travel or reduced travel hydraulic roller or flat tappets will likely require restricted push rods because they have only .050" total plunger travel and are designed to operate at high RPM without pumping up. High performance and racing engine builders have been restricting the flow to the valve covers since 1955. In the early daze, some used pipe cleaners in the push rods and some pushed a .080" wire into the push rods. Now we can buy push rods with .040" or .030" hole in one end as the restriction.

Where did anyone get the idea that valve covers will hold 5 quarts of oil?

On our SB Chevy Jr.Fuel dragster, we used various mechanical flat tappet and mechanical roller camshafts. With either of those type camshafts, the engine would puke oil out the breathers at high RPM. That is why sanctioning bodies require oil breathers to be piped to the exhaust header so oil would evacuate and burn the oil in the exhaust header rather than puke oil on the track. Even after we installed lifter oil gallery restriction, the rules still required us to maintain the oil evacuation system, as a precaution. Lifter gallery oil restriction in not necessary if you use the preferred method by using restricted push rods.

There is 4 quarts of oil in the upper parts of the ENGINE, not just the valve covers, above 5,000 RPM and that leaves less than a quart in a stock oil pan. Acceleration or cornering can cause the remaining quart to move away from oil pump pick up screen. That is why racing engines need larger capacity oil pans with baffles or use dry sump oiling. You can reduce the oil in the upper part of the engine and increase the pressure in the crank by simply using restricted push rods.
If your blowing oil out the breathers don't blame it on the lifters!!! Blame it on blowby and some one should learn how to prepare cylinders,

4 quarts in the upper part of the engine I find that statement to be BS, I have some circle track engines with stock pans 5 quart system 4 in the pan one in the filter and if your BS statement were true it would blow up. They are mandated to run these pans due to rules made by the track.

Once again the OP's lifters are allready restricted do the the oil orface being not being in the oil band.

Run a hyd falt tappet engines with the coves off watch how much oil is squirting out of the rockers then try the same thing with a solid roller engine.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE View Post
I build alot of engines and deal with alot of shops and to date I don't know of any one running a 100 pounds plus oil pressure wet or dry sump.

A hundred pound of oil pressure on a wet sump you will kill the dist and cam gear.

Restrictors are built in to the most roller lifters now.
Yep pretty much no one needs to run that kind of pressure for normal engines. but soem race engines will need that kind of pressure and when you do have a high crank load and cant increase the bearing width the only option is to increase the amount of oil to the bearing surface.

NHRA engine typically use more than 100 psi oil pressure.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:08 AM
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Talk about BS ! Never take BS engine performance advice from anyone who runs dirt track claimer engines.

Throwing oil out the breathers has been a problem with Pontiac high performance engines until they went to a completely closed PCV system in 1971 with a rubber plug in the one valve cover and a PCV valve in the other and eliminated the rocker arm baffles.

Pontiac tried to prevent the oil from blowing out the valve covers by placing a 4"-6" breather stacks on the valve covers of 1962-1964 421 SD / HO and 1964 GTO high performance engines but it did not work very well. Pontiac 421 SD solid lifters had a tiny oil feed hole in the oil band and the engines still blew oil out the breathers. They attempted to use the same lifters in the experimental 1969-1970 Ram Air V engines. It was caused by increased oil volume and splash in the valve covers at high RPM when using solid lifters.

The LH breather stack on the 1962-1963 421 SD and 1963 421 HO engines was located directly above a rocker arm and oil still blows out the stack. The breather stack on the RH valve cover was between two rocker arms and did not have any oil blowing out the valve cover stack. Pontiac drag racers in A/FX classes had to wrap rags around the LH breather stack to keep from oiling down the track. The owners of 409 Chevrolets even welded 12" - 14" breather stacks to the stock valve covers.

I am sure the professional engine builders fitted the rings in those engines correctly.

I pushed a piece of open cell foam rubber down the LH breather stack but eventually the foam rubber plug became saturated and oil began coming out the breather stack at high RPM. Pontiac started placing rocker arm oil baffles under the valve covers from 1964 through 1967 and that eliminated oil blowing out the valve cover breathers until the fully closed PCV system was introduced and they put a rubber plugs in the breather openings. Chevrolet engines does not have breather in the valve covers. Chevy engines had a breather stack in the front of the engine near the water pump. Oil in those engines has no place to go except back into the engine so excessive oil pumping by solid lifters must be avoided.

1987-up hydraulic lifters have oil holes on the barrel with a relief to the oil band. That is a effort to restrict oil pumping mto the valve covers, but is it enough?

Last edited by MouseFink; 03-22-2013 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MouseFink View Post
That is why sanctioning bodies require oil breathers to be piped to the exhaust header so oil would evacuate and burn the oil in the exhaust header rather than puke oil on the track.
Wow and all these years I thought it was to pull a vacuum on the crankcase, You learn something new everyday.

To the O.P. take CNC's advice, he's a pro who builds these things everyday and has an excellent reputation here in the Northeast.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MouseFink View Post
Talk about BS ! Never take BS engine performance advice from anyone who runs dirt track claimer engines.
Never built a dirt tack claimer engine in my life,

Go to my F/B page as you can see no dirt tacks and one engine 7 championships I guess I have a good idea what I am doing and talking about LOL https://www.facebook.com/carl.hinkso...ocks.northeast

Here is little of what we do for circle track and marine.













A Little bit of what I do for work,
Blue Printing A Block - Chevelle Tech

Just comparing apples to apples what it your claim to fame ?????

Last edited by CNC BLOCKS NE; 03-22-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:27 AM
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For the original question by the OP:

If the engine needs oil restriction, do it if you have full roller rocker arms.
If the engine does not need oil restriction, don't do it.

It is easy to determine if the engine needs restricted push rods when you lash the valves with the engine running. Restricted push rods is the way to go with solid or hydraulic lifters.

I used restricted push rods because the Comp Cams 15850 Short Travel hydraulic roller lifters sent too much oil to the rocker arms as I was setting the pre-load. The short travel hydraulic lifters has a lifter oil feed hole in the oil band. The lifter feed hole in solid roller lifters and regular travel hydraulic roller lifters is in the lifter body above the oil band.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by engineczar View Post
Wow and all these years I thought it was to pull a vacuum on the crankcase, You learn something new everyday.

To the O.P. take CNC's advice, he's a pro who builds these things everyday and has an excellent reputation here in the Northeast.

Oh com on I only been building engines for 38 years now LOL I don't have clue LOL

Thanks for the comliment.

To the OP give Chris Straub a call I am sure he will give the same advise I gave. Welcome to Straub Technologies. . .The Source of Performance.

Good luck which ever way you go !!!!
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:05 PM
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Straub used to post on here, very valuable poster.

One of the issues with being on forums is it takes time to figure out who's the real deal.

I've been here for 10 years. CNC NE and Straub are on the top 10 list. If they tell you something, its true. Take his advice.

K
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