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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 11:07 AM
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I have never incorporated this into any engine I have ever built.

I could see where it would be advantageous in certain applications. Any street type engine would be a waste of time, and so would most competition engines. Many 800 horsepower circle track engines don't have this type of hocus pocus and they last season after season.

It involves drilling into the oil galley, installing a fixed orifice jet, and getting the thing aimed properly so it will spray on the underside of the piston. The jet hole would be pretty small. It will surprise you how much hot oil will squirt out of a tiny .030" orifice. You'll need long drill bits (good ones). You,ll get sick of breaking them.

I have a Vizard book that shows the procedure and orifice size, but I don't have it handy. I think it's building small block chevys on a budget.

If you are using huge nitrous loads on a drag engine, or tremendous boost loads on a turbo/supercharged engine. or other extreme applications, it might be warranted.

Another instance that it might be useful would be dry sump applications with 3 or more stages of suction. Some dry sump systems are so good at cleaning the oil out of the crankcase, there's not enough to splash the wrist pins.

I've seen wrist pin failures in engines like this, and in those cases, an oil jet for the bottom of the piston would be a good deal.

If you want to put oil jets in the mains of your engine, knock yourself out, it's not going to stop detonation. You should avoid detonation by using the proper fuel for the static compression you have. Once it starts, it's like a blow torch in your cylinder and does a wonderful job of melting pistons. No oil jet is going to stop it.

I'll see if I can dig up the article on it and post it in here.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 09:46 PM
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thanks every1 for your thoughts. obviously its unanimous that this idea will not do much to help and that it would be a waist of time and money to stop detonation (and i agree). and i do realize that i would not be the first, i do not,and have not claimed to be the first at doing anything, like it was said this motor is of a VERY old design. however what i apparently am not making clear is that i am mostly worried about heat weakening the piston as the compression ring and the head of the piston will be rather close (thinner upper land). and since the hotter it gets the weaker the aluminum i am afraid it would break that land. obviously i am not a pro or anything thats why i ask your opinions and i appreciate it. my main concern here is durability, i have seen race pistons with not much space from the head of the piston to the compression ring but how do i know how it will hold up day to day with abuse??? thus the idea to cool to piston as much as i can... if you look at my 2nd post you can see where i referred to this. however i did think that a cooler piston my help ward of detonation for a slight bit, and this shows up on my previous post, however it wasn't the main reason i got interested in this setup. here is a picture of an aircraft engine (yeah its air cooled) with it.



when i ran the numbers i came to a pin hight of 1.176 but with a 1.625 stroke radius and a 6.25 rod length it comes out to 9.051 (obviously bigger than standard). so i got to start tightening the ring pack and because i have to take .026 out of the ring pack somewhere i will be loosing strength, thus my concern for piston strength. so i come to another question, in your opinion would you use thinner rings (reduce the life of the ring) or equaly thin the lands?

thanks again guys for your time and comments.

sorry guys, i didnt know the pic was going to be so big!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2004, 10:04 PM
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NAIRB, the article your refering to, out of that Vizard book, i think i have it. i found one in a Max performance Chevy small blocks on a budget, page 59 & 60.. this the same one?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2004, 10:49 AM
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Piston Squirters

From what I have seen of squirters the gain in combustion chamber temps allows you to add spark. However, OE have seen only a 2 to 3 degree increase. That is negated by the power it takes to push the oil. Also, in many of the OE configurations the squirters break off and are useless. Most OE (auto) are moving away from this.

Just my 2 cents!
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Old 12-02-2004, 11:09 AM
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You want to run high compression...on 87 octane?

Try the water injection...it works. There are aftermarket kits or you could build one yourself.

I have also seen in books where the water injection is spiked with alcohol. It can be set up to run when the knock sensor tells it to.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2004, 11:52 AM
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You will melt a hole in the top of the piston before you melt the ring land from high cylinder temps.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2004, 12:18 PM
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When I first started my project I set out to show the young guys what old fashioned horsepower was like back in the old days. Too many wannabee's out there these days with 4 cyl. "fast" cars. I quickly found that if I want to go fast by todays standards the old school way is out dated. I've since decided on E.F.I. injection over carburetors. Programmable ignition over standard H.E.I. and the list goes on. Your taking an analog approach in a digital world. If you want to be innovative, find new and improved ways to ''electronically'' manage the fuel delivery and ignition systems. That's were the industry is headed. I admire your determination but, I'd do some more serious research before I started spending too much money on a mechanical system.

If your looking to suppress denotation water injection is a good idea.
www.msefi.com/
Check out this forum. Lotta' good info. there.
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Old 12-02-2004, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
i don't see to many 87 octane engines running around with 11:1.
Ever seen a 4th generation Camaro or C4 corvette??? LT1 with reverse flow cooling system, some of which were 11 : 1 motors. Now, I am not saying that they ran as good on 87 as on 93, but they do run ok and they have a knock sensor to be safe.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2004, 03:12 PM
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Different cycles

Why not try a miller cycle??
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Old 12-02-2004, 05:28 PM
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Oil squirters aren't really too terribly new, and have already been included on some passenger cars, namely the SRT-4 Neon, as seen below. [IMG]'http://hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0309_srt_3_z.jpg',640,472[/IMG]
Also consider the new coatings, they're awesome, read about them being tested at the below link.
Space Age Coatings
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2004, 07:15 PM
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thanks again guys for your posts..

SmallBlock_guy, so its 2-3 degrees in the chamber? the book i have says up to 200 degrees for the piston, interesting..

NXS, yeah water injection, i thought about it, but i figure it would be best to use it sparingly, and not have a motor that would depend on it, might be a good idea tho for me just in case i decide to do some towing.

4 Jaw Chuck, how about breaking a land, due to the aluminum being of a weaker strength at temp, and from the RPM from my beating the crap out of it and the loads higher RPM places on the weaker lands, not from detonation? is this possible or would i see detonation first?

pro70z28, yeah your right, in fact every1 tells me this, but i wouldn't be a old school nut if i did everything electronically! just something about mechanical and electro-mechanicals that i like... i know that as long as i stick to my analog mentality i will be just that much more behind with the times. but thats fine with me, this isn't supposed to be the fastest thing around, just maybe the the weirdest looking. fastest is for later. if i wanted fast i would go to a aircraft bone yard and pull a JT12A (turbo jet) outa something like a saberliner and mount it on a go-kart that way i can continue avoiding to many electronics :-) more seriously tho, its only a matter of time before i resort to them. not on this project tho.

snod83, hum i didn't know they were! thats cool tho!

adryan16, thanks for the link.

Last edited by Old School Nut; 12-02-2004 at 07:23 PM.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 02:13 PM
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Spark

The squirters allow for piston cooling. Once you cool the chamber you can add more spark. However due to knock limits all they could add was 2-3 degrees of spark. The power created from the spark was negated by the pumping loss of moving the oil.

As adryan16 stated a lot of OE were going in that direction. They thought "if we can cool the piston we can put more spark in!" It really did not work too well.

That does not mean it won't work for you. Just be aware of other's results.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 02:35 PM
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We have put pin oiler squirter in some pans for quite some time in extreme applications.

Chris
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
4 Jaw Chuck, how about breaking a land, due to the aluminum being of a weaker strength at temp, and from the RPM from my beating the crap out of it and the loads higher RPM places on the weaker lands, not from detonation? is this possible or would i see detonation first?
Normal engine operating parameters do not overstress the engine components...even at high rpm.

Loads imposed by higher rpm will not be solved by oil squirters on the bottom of the pistons.

If your detonating the engine from high compression or poor fuel you will not solve it with oil squirters.

Oil squirters are not a cure all for abuse or poor engine design/tuning.

Your time would be better spent building the engine than doing a backyard redesign of it.

Water injection is a thousand times more effective than any oil squirter anyway, water is free...what do you have against using it? Put in a big tank and you could even travel farther than a tank of fuel will get you.

Aquamist.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 08:24 PM
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thanks for the input guys, 4 Jaw Chuck, i have nothing against water injection, i just do not want to be dependent on it.. i have already found the pump i want to use and the accumulator, haven't found the nozzle diameter yet i want to use (i am piecing together my own slowly). a friend of mine a year ago was supposed to find his stash of them (used to sell them) for me but he is old enough he doesn't remember where he put them in his mess of stuff, (he also was a franze filter dealer)) pretty cool idea tho i have seen them on WWII aircraft and some jet engines also use them, but jets don't use it for detonation :-)
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