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Old 11-25-2004, 09:30 PM
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oil squirt piston cooling

hello guys, here I am again with another weird question. as many of you know I am trying to design a multi fuel, high hp, yet good mileage engine (don't we all want one?). one problem I am worried about is detonation and piston failure due to lean mixes, high compression ratios and crappy gas i plan to use. so i ask, who here has installed oil squirters on a SB chevy? i am curious as to how it turned out, and what size orifice you used. i am also wondering if you had any problems with the more than average amount of oil in the area diluting the fuel air mix (and causing problems). any pointers you all have i would be interested to hear. if for some reason you got something to say but don't want the world to know don't be afraid to PM me

why i want to use this system:
1, its proven on diesels and aircraft engines
2, it should reduce piston temps around 200*
3, great for low RPM's


problems:
1. i don't know what size orifice, but i do know aircraft use a hole between a 55 and 56 drill bit, but they turn on at 50 PSI and turn of at 40 PSI, any of you diesel guys got more info?
2.its obviously one more thing to go wrong.
3. i would need a larger capacity pump (i hate loosing hp) (btw any suggestions?)

thanks again guys for your time and input

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Old 11-25-2004, 09:39 PM
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my motorcycle engine has this type of oil-squirt setup.you can also ceramic-coat the piston tops to lower oil temps. what exactly are you trying to gain by squirting oil?
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Old 11-25-2004, 10:04 PM
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i am trying to reduce piston temps as much as possible because i will be putting them through alot. i have also thought about coatings. this motor will see all kinds of weird duty as i experiment with it. from high RPM (with i might add a smaller than normal pin hight with a tight ring pack) to idleing around in town with lean fuel air mix's....
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Old 11-26-2004, 09:00 PM
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any1??
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Old 11-26-2004, 09:26 PM
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The angular position of the hole is important since it only squirts the piston top after TDC. Only problem is it weakens the rod and you need beefier rods to compensate. Not to mention the higher oil load it puts on control ring.

Just remember you need to machine a proper squirter orifice or it will be a spray instead of a jet.
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:10 PM
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hummm well i guess i should have been more specific! i wasnt thinking about the ones on the rods, but rather drilled into the mains sorry about that. i took pics but they will not be done tell sunday (a lot of people had pics after thanksgiving) the pics are of an aircraft engine with (rather large) oil squirters that are fed oil from the main bearings (annular shaped passages under the bearing).
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:25 PM
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How high of compression are you talking about?

Here are some things you can do to run higher compression:
*Evans coolant http://www.evanscooling.com/main21.htm
*Use a 160o thermostat
* Improve your spark. A stronger flamefront will suffocate the smaller flame fronts that you don't want, (the ones that cause pre-ignition)
*Smooth out all sharp edges in the combustion chamber. I rounded the edges of my valve reliefs and smoothed out the cylinder heads sharp spots. Sharp edges heat up and cause pre-ignition.
*Fuel injection can help eliminate poor mixture quality.
*Run a cam with a narrower lobe sep. and a higher duration @ .050"
*Cowl induction and coated headers can reduce underhood temps. I shimmed the back of my stock hood with washers, effectively lifting the back about 3".
*Having your timing curve come in later can help although I don't recommend this. Optimum timing is optimum.
*Try and shoot for a .030" quench.
*A slight dish in your pistons will help.
* Aluminum head will allow about .5:1 more compression.
*Higher numeric gears and higher stall will help take some of the load off the engine in the lower RPMs.
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Old 11-26-2004, 11:29 PM
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well i plan on going up to 11.0:1 compression at the most. i plan on doing this with a bigger bore and smaller combustion chambers. like you said i want to have little to no dome at all.. this ratio is with aluminum heads. however since cast iron is more efficient i might go with cast iron and reduce it to about 10.5-10:1, what i am not sure of is if a coated cylinder head would allow me to raise the compression ratio. also like you said ignition is going to be important for this engine especially with it running lean at lower speeds. btw the tranny i will be using is an overdrive, so i get to use 3:73 gears and still get good mileage oh and i plan on using cheap 87 octane... yeah i know i will be pushing it... but i will put a knock sensor on it

thanks for your pointers lluciano77.
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Old 11-27-2004, 12:54 AM
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I am at 11:1 with cast iron heads on my SBC 400. My cam is a 114o lobe sep. with 230o @ .050". I run 91 octane with no problems.

If I were you I would go 11:1 with aluminum. That way you will have a little more headroom. You should be able to get your 87 octane that way.
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Old 11-27-2004, 01:40 AM
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oil cooled pistons are good.
I used to make better cooling jets on Olds engines. The rods and the rod bearings had a hole on one side. I slotted the rod bearings .750" on the upper and lower from the hole. I added more champher around the rod bolt and filed in a bigger hole on the rod on the bearing side. Don't open the hole on the outlet of the rod, it needs restriction to squirt. The factory set up spit oil up under the piston. My set up squirts oil under the piston. Also used to slot the upper mains not just grooved, took a hack saw or grinding disc and cut the bearings, more oil for the rods that way. Cross drilled the mains.
Also leave the rod side clearance loose.
At least .004" on the pistons also.
Factory pistons would be installed backwards also, wrist pins were offset.
Oil squirters in the mains are for inline engines.
Rod sqirters do the opposite side.
Fun stuff. People used to say we were screwing up, we never lost a engine. This was the old days. Now I have worked a Cat dealership for the last 15 years on engines only.
My boss used to say, this is the good old days, we just don't know it yet.
He was right.
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Old 11-27-2004, 02:45 AM
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For such a mild built engine it would be a complete waste of time and would likely cause you more oil control/rod bearing problems than its worth.

When you hit close to 2-3HP/CI give it a try.

Your just full of hair brained schemes aren't you?
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Old 11-27-2004, 05:59 AM
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I have to say that you need to drop this idea and just have the pistons coated if you are going to spend some money. If the engine is detonating, you are screwing up alot more than the pistons. Good forged pistons will handle a little bit of detonation, but if you are stupid with it you will have issues. Usually when an engine is detonating, it will blow head gaskets as well. You can also plan on hammering the rod bearings if you detonate the engine much. Detonation will destroy an engine faster than anything and you should never plan on having an engine detonate. If you do, then plan on rebuilding/replacing it constantly.

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Old 11-27-2004, 03:02 PM
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Some things are not worth the effort for sure. Also remember oil cools if it flows. The benefit of all this may be to just expell oil out from the crank and keep a bearing from getting tight from temperture rise. Oil flying all over inside a engine eats HP but it also lubes. Lube is good. Oil cooled pistons in big bore diesel engines are standard design. Oil control is not a problem. Lose the cooling jet and the piston sticks right now. Can't hurt a gas pot to have oil under the crown. Coating the top is good stuff but it can cause thermal stress areas if the coating comes off in any spot on the crown.
The all around best solution for a street engine is to build a engine for X HP and use only 75% of it.
I have 500 CFM 2 bbl. turboed 327 and it might take 10 PSI boost but I only run 6 PSI. I have run it flat out pulling a trailer with my foot to the floor for 10 minutes straight. 220 F water temp. and 1250 F exhaust temp after the turbo. I would ruin it if I jacked up the boost but I have not yet. Max RPM on hard pull is 3500.
A kid would ruin this set up fast with a 4bbl. or more RPM.
I built it a decade ago and never have pulled the thing down since. Heads never have come off since built.
Todays world calls for new ideas, use what the world will offer and tone it down to keep your money in your pocket.
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Old 11-27-2004, 07:54 PM
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thanks every1 for their posts, and 4 Jaw Chuck, if having hair brained schemes is a complement thanks! lol.

now back to motors, what i am trying to do here is run a a engine on alcohol and gasoline, since i want to use alcohol and get the most power from it i want to use the most compression as possible with cheap 87 octane gas(not to mention i want to run it lean).. if this motor was to only use alcohol i would probably try 15:1, but since i am going to make this thing run on gasoline i figured 11:1 was a good compromise (i hate that word), if you feel this is mild for 87 octane i dunno! i don't see to many 87 octane engines running around with 11:1. Obviously i do not want detonation. thats why i will install a knock sensor. however my idea was to reduce the heat of the piston to help prevent it. coatings would be nice to, i am convinced that if they hold up they would work great. but they sure are not cheap...

4 Jaw Chuck, i do not see how this can cause rod bearing problems when the system i speak of is fed from the top of the mains, in fact i just was paging through some of my books and see a pic of it done on a SB chevy. if we are still on the same page could you explain?

110 octane, calling me a kid? lol jk... anyways your right, i plan on beating the snot out of this thing, 327 crank and 400 block with a long rod that LOVES RPM. starts on gasoline, can drive around on it when i want to, or make trips far from home, but when i am near home i just pour in some of my home brew and off i go

i have most of the carburation system worked out but i wont even go their, you all will think i am nuts then again maybe some of you already think that!
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Old 11-28-2004, 10:04 AM
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Cooling the piston...cools only the piston, it will affect your octane requirements only fractionally...if at all. Oil jet cooling of the pistons is mainly used as a durability fix for air cooled engines or diesels where detonation is constant.

I call it hairbrained because your trying to reinvent the wheel, there are many SBC running around that put out more power than what you are trying to achieve without anything fancier than standard build procedures and components.

Nothing wrong with talking about it but at some point you have to realize there is nothing to be gained and that your not the first person to try it. To make advances in high compression fuel compatibility requires head and combustion chamber redesign as well as electronic controls, much like what the manufacturers are doing now.

Typically that means multivalve heads and pentroof chambers with swirl inducing port shapes to control mixture at the plug. When you ready to start pouring your own castings and creating your own designs let me know, this stuff is just fluff.

Don't want to rain on the parade dude but there's no free ride, sounds like you would be better off starting with a design that isn't 50 years old. Certain things you can't fix without reinventing the wheel...that means new block and heads. Some things are just not worth doing without the basic building blocks to start with.
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