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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2014, 10:43 AM
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I am convinced it was the high port technology back then, the bowl work and shape (entries, exits, radii, contouring, etc...) VJ and getting it past the valve that mattered the most of all! We all know this is not the only thing but it is what we are talking about here. The bell shape to the ports from entrance to the valve was continued all the way up the mani. runners and blended right into the plenum as a radii. Take as many of the kinks and bends out of the overall, raising everything up to straighten it all out throughout the whole system and turn it into the backside of the valve (VJ, very important!) with velocity as the main concern along with as much volume as you could get with what you were working with. The plenum was also an extension to this train of thought and blended into the bottom of the throttle body of the Dominator. Think one long tube like the noise end of a trumpet from valve to carb. Just used the velocity design in a reverse fashion to the horns exit. The entry to the carb was also a part of this designed system. That was my thoughts at the time with what I had seen and been around then.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steeny View Post
The top teams (NHRA, Sprints, NASCAR, etc...)were making big HP with stock style heads back then. I checked out as many as I had the chance to be around then. Read all the engineering books on this subject and Yes, port volume and chamber shape matters (this is always talked about) but the real in-depth story was about getting the flow in and out efficiently. The pro's always talked some pages on size but talked volumes of chapters on shape and quality of what to do with it. (velocity and were the flow is greatest, bowls, straightening and VJ)As a study of engineering back then, for me this was what it was all about. Still is the real devil in the details today, just has progressed up the ladder, so to speak. That is why these heads laid flat over 7k but underneath that they seemed to have worked well for my wants at the time.
Besides removing material in key areas modern heads also have the advantage of having material in key areas. That's one thing that was, and still is royal PITA to do- put material back into the head. Some of those old racing heads look like a mixture of aluminum foil, weld/braze, and epoxy- sometimes I'm amazed they held up for a single run.

You could probably take those heads to a flow bench and pick up cfm by putting clay in certain areas of the chamber, short side, bowl, and entrance.

Like you said, its all about size and shape.


If anyone else has a pic of epoxied/filled older heads I would love it if they posted them here as well- its neat to see what people "made work".
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AutoGear View Post
Cool! Thanks for posting this!

I have a customer that had some friends in high places back in the 70s and 80s. He was buying up all kinds of "old junk" speed stuff. He has a shop crammed to the gills with things like Mondello ported heads, Barney Navarro developmental stuff, old GM experimental stuff, Lee Sheppard heads that probably have 20 pounds of welding rod in them, and his street rod has a set of Brownfield heads.

His kids have no interest, and his response to me was "If I told them what this stuff is, they'd off me and sell the whole pile on eBay. But hes one of these hoarder types and won't let anything go either...ARGH
They made 5-600hp back then with stock style stuff......you just had to work hard and smart for it then!!!!!

Pro-stock boy's still work very hard and smart in this progression. There is always more, ya just need to experiment intelligently with a lot of time to work at it...........of course big, deep pockets are a plus here!!!
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:59 AM
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Still applies to a blower engine but open them up big time and ram it down its throat whether it wants it or not...........HeHeHe!!!
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Old 01-16-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Besides removing material in key areas modern heads also have the advantage of having material in key areas. That's one thing that was, and still is royal PITA to do- put material back into the head. Some of those old racing heads look like a mixture of aluminum foil, weld/braze, and epoxy- sometimes I'm amazed they held up for a single run.

You could probably take those heads to a flow bench and pick up cfm by putting clay in certain areas of the chamber, short side, bowl, and entrance.

Like you said, its all about size and shape.


If anyone else has a pic of epoxied/filled older heads I would love it if they posted them here as well- its neat to see what people "made work".
If I had the time and inclination it would be fun to just mess with.....why? I don't know....just to do it I guess. There is much better stuff out there now for a base platform to work this all on.
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Old 01-16-2014, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steeny View Post
I am convinced it was the high port technology back then, the bowl work and shape (entries, exits, radii, contouring, etc...) VJ and getting it past the valve that mattered the most of all! We all know this is not the only thing but it is what we are talking about here. The bell shape to the ports from entrance to the valve was continued all the way up the mani. runners and blended right into the plenum as a radii. Take as many of the kinks and bends out of the overall, raising everything up to straighten it all out throughout the whole system and turn it into the backside of the valve (VJ, very important!) with velocity as the main concern along with as much volume as you could get with what you were working with. The plenum was also an extension to this train of thought and blended into the bottom of the throttle body of the Dominator. Think one long tube like the noise end of a trumpet from valve to carb. Just used the velocity design in a reverse fashion to the horns exit. The entry to the carb was also a part of this designed system. That was my thoughts at the time with what I had seen and been around then.
Thats a pretty fair description of the 'High and Mighty' from carb to header trumpet.
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:13 PM
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Thats a pretty fair description of the 'High and Mighty' from carb to header trumpet.
Somewhat, just not as accentuated and ridiculous as those older 40's-50's guy's did. A tunnel ram, high rise mani. or fab'd mani. The thought was to ingest as much as possible with wave velocity, squish the livin' crap out of it, ignite, utilize as much as possible, then get it out as fast as possible. Use all the waves of physics before and after to add to the overall. The idea was the system from carb intake to exit out the collector end was a tunable set of waves (~) for a certain powerband. Obviously the camshaft and mixture quality was a great concern. The squish was there. Now it was just a matter of shifting the wave tune around with the overall of the system in mind. Messing with the filling and emptying cycle (shifting the waves) and introducing it ( gas and air or the spent waste) at the correct times (cam) with a high squish and bang (correct ign. curve) inbetween but keeping the overall system in mind to each other was and still is the point.
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by steeny View Post
you just had to work hard for it then!
You worked harder back then, NOW you work smarter and you can have a 600hp pump gas sbc made entirely of catalog parts. Design and manufacturing is WAY ahead of what it was back then.
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:59 PM
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You worked harder back then, NOW you work smarter and you can have a 600hp pump gas sbc made entirely of catalog parts. Design and manufacturing is WAY ahead of what it was back then.
Not necessarily true! Can't just discount intelligence and technology. The progression to today is built upon lessons learned from yesterday and it will be the same thing into tomorrow. That's why you can build that cookie cutter 600hp street runner. To say 30-40 years from now that today we know it all and before was dumb is incorrect and demeaning. That is the way it grows, gets better and why design and manuf. is were it is today. It will be better tomorrow built upon the back of today, just as it was back then to today.
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Old 01-16-2014, 09:04 PM
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I wish I had pictures of the build I did in auto class in grade 12.Today I would laugh myself silly. I bought a set of 2.02 heads,pull the studs myself using a rocker arm. threaded the holes and used shoulderless studs. and did my own multi angle valve grind(ruining all the stones in shop class)
Then I did my own "CNC" porting,,,,, used the milling machine in metal class and cut square ish exhaust ports,didnt touch intake side,,,back then a lot of porters said it was better to have rough castings on the intake side.
I bought a "used 30/30 cam, new lifters, Z-28 service springs(called offroad back then)put these heads on a 283 for a 65 chevyII. circa 1976
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:49 AM
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Heres an old thread on speedtalk about Lee Shepherd; some really cool vintage photos too
Lee Shepherd's contribution to head porting. • Speed Talk
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:17 AM
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Another great set of heads back in the day were the Crane Fireballs, you'd see them more at the circletracks and they were great heads. I ran across a set not long ago.
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:46 AM
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In that thread I posted; the pics are reposted on page 5
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:19 PM
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Thanks for posting that link Autogear! Wow! those picks bring back good memories. The atmosphere at the tracks back then was soooooooooo much different than later years and now!!!!
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:57 PM
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Pic of the sbc those heads were on.
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