Hot Rod Forum banner

old hemi's any good?

24K views 37 replies 22 participants last post by  Centerline 
#1 ·
I was just wondering if the old hemi's like the 270 Red Ram and the 331s equal the 426 hemis? First of all I understand the cubic inch difference, I mean are they "ahead" of other engines of equal cubic inch? With the same basic design I would say yes but I want to hear from people who work/run them. What is the interchangeability of parts(rods,cranks,heads,blocks and so on)with the small block hemis? I know the 426 and 392 are in their own class, just want to know about the small blocks.
Basically, where do I go to learn about these? Where do I get rebuild parts? How to identify the difference between a 270 or 331. How to identify if it is a 270 or 331. Hell I'm probably wrong on the cubic inch!! Need/want to learn! Give me your favorite sites to visit. Thank you!!
 
#5 ·
The 426 hemi is TOTALLY different from any of the early hemis. In fact, Chrysler Corp. threw out all of the design and engineering from the early engines shortly after discontinuing them in '58 so they had to start with a blank sheet of paper when designing the 426 in '63.

that being said, all of the early engines were very high quality machines. All had forged rods and cranks, hi-nickel iron castings and superb machining.

Unfortunately, Chrysler, Dodge and Desoto all made different series engines and none of the parts are interchangeable between the marques.

Chrysler's models were;
1951 - 53 331 long bellhousing
1954 - 55 331 short bellhousing
1956 - 57 354
1957 - 58 392
Several industrial and marine models

Dodge Models were;
1953 - 54 241
1955 - 56 270
1956 315
1957 - 58 325
Various industrial and marine engines

Desoto models were;
1952 - 54 276
1955 291
1956 330
1956 - 57 341
1957 345
I don't think Desotos were ever used in industrial and marine apps. Not sure of that though.

Dodge trucks had all types of Chrysler, Dodge and Desoto engines over the years.

Although the relationship of these engines was unmistakable due to identical construction features, nothing interchanges between the makes.

I don't know about interchangeability within Dodge and Desoto but within Chrysler a lot of stuff is interchangeable. For example any 331/354/392 valve cover and or rocker arm assembly will fit any other engine. 331 & 354 engines are virtually the same except for bore so cranks rods and pistons (with a 1/8" bore job on a 331) are interchangeable. Heads are interchangeable on all the engines. In fact, 331 heads are popular with the 392 & 354 drag racers because they have shorter, better flowing ports. If that switch is made, 1/2" thick spacer plates must be used to fit the intake manifold since the 'big block' 392 has taller deck than the other two 'small blocks'. Cams are interchangeable between the 331 and 354 and although they fit in the 392, lobe displacement angles are different due to the taller deck so the cams won't run well.

The '51 - '53 long bellhousing Chrysler 331 is probably the least desirable style because of the obvious problem in adapting transmissions but also due to the heads having smaller valves and small round exhaust ports whereas all later engines had larger oval ports. However, Don Garlits used one of these in his first rail top fuel dragster so they still can be made to put out power.

the Chryslers have a bunch of speed and rebuild parts made for them. It is fairly easy to build and hop up one of those puppies. Not so for the Dodge and Desoto. They had a modest amount of speed equipment made for them back in the day but it is rare and nothing is currently in production for them. I have heard rumors that Hot Heads is tooling up to make some new hop up parts for them. I don't know why but Chrysler engines of all sizes are still readily available but the Dodge and Desoto engines seem quite rare.

As far as potential, they are still among the elite engines for all-out power potential. None of their contemporaries from other car makers is even close. They can, and do in the nostalgia racing circuit, compete heads up with any modern big block engine.

Here are a few sites to visit.

The Early Chrysler Hemi Registry

Hotrods and Hemis. This is the home page of our illustrious HR.com member and moderator Centerline!

Imperial Club

Hot Heads. These guys specialize in early hemi parts.
 
#8 ·
AC/DC said:
I was just wondering if the old hemi's like the 270 Red Ram and the 331s equal the 426 hemis? First of all I understand the cubic inch difference, I mean are they "ahead" of other engines of equal cubic inch? With the same basic design I would say yes but I want to hear from people who work/run them. What is the interchangeability of parts(rods,cranks,heads,blocks and so on)with the small block hemis? I know the 426 and 392 are in their own class, just want to know about the small blocks.
Basically, where do I go to learn about these? Where do I get rebuild parts? How to identify the difference between a 270 or 331. How to identify if it is a 270 or 331. Hell I'm probably wrong on the cubic inch!! Need/want to learn! Give me your favorite sites to visit. Thank you!!
Okay, now that Willys has clued you in on alot of the positives of the early hemi, let me give you a few more details to think about.

1: (AVAILABILITY) Be careful when purchasing one of these old guys. They are very popular and alot of unscrupulous guys will sell some piece of junk that has been sitting outside since 1960. Your best bet is to buy one out of an old car that is still free, and has always had a hood on it.

2:(COST) Rebuild and aftermarket parts are available for the early hemi, but expect to pay triple or more (compared to other modern engines) for things like main and rod bearings, pistons, cams valves and guides.

3:(INTERCHANGEABILITY) You will need adapter plates, etc to mate modern transmissions to them.

4: (SIZE), Although the early hemi is not quite as heavy as it looks, it's a big, bulky engine for it's displacement, and is very wide, making it very pleasing to look at, but sometimes hard to shoehorn into small areas.

5:(THE LITTLE STUFF) If you delve into one of these, try to start with as complete an engine as you can. They've been out of production for a long time, and the more accessories you get with it, the better. Places like Hot Heads offers alternate, Chevy style water pumps and modified distributors to work in place of the stockers. Everything is available for them, but they aren't cheap.

Now, if you are prepared to deal with these obstacles and added cost, the early hemi is a great rod engine. Powerful, and in my opinion, along with the "W" motor Chevy is one of the hottest looking powerplants you can build.

Do a little homework before you jump into one of these.
 
#10 ·
I couldn't have came to a better place!! Willys, thank you for that detailed description and taking the time to put it together for me.

NAIRB, thank you also. My old man(Dad) has some of these critters laying around and actually was the first guy(in our area) to put one of these(331) on a Massey Harris 30 and pulled in the old "hot rod" class at tractor pulls. Never could get the clutch to hold up. Anyhow, I understand the risks involved but come on, it's a hemi!!!
 
#11 ·
Nairb is correct in pointing out some of the drawbacks to the early hemis. However the "class" factor greatly outweighs any drawbacks. ;)

Although the early hemis look big, generally speaking you can put one just about anywhere you can put a small block chevy with headers.

 
#12 ·
Good point Center. A 331/354 hemi is only a couple of inches wider than a BBC, is shorter in length and weighs within ~25#.

Stock dimensions;
331/354
W - 29" (valve cover edge to valve cover edge. I measured my 331.)
L - 36 3/4" (fan to bellhousing - may vary between models)
H - 36 1/2" (Bottom of pan to top of air cleaner. Add a blower and this changes!)
Weight ~700#. (392 weighs ~740#.)

BBC
Width - 28"
Length - 39" (Fan flange to bellhousing)
Height - 20.5" (not sure what this includes from the site I got it from. Anyway, visual comparison of BBC w/ a 392 @ a car show shows they are nearly the same height if dressed the same)
Weight ~685#

SBC
Width - 26"
Length - 28"
Height - 27"
Weight ~575#
 
#13 ·
NAIRB said:
2(COST) Rebuild and aftermarket parts are available for the early hemi, but expect to pay triple or more (compared to other modern engines) for things like main and rod bearings, pistons, cams valves and guides.
Yup, that's why someone with a lot more money than me owns the 345" DeSoto I found a while back. I still get to help build it though, my participation in the build was part of the sale.

Larry
 
#14 ·
coldknock said:
Yup, that's why someone with a lot more money than me owns the 345" DeSoto I found a while back. I still get to help build it though, my participation in the build was part of the sale.

Larry
Beware!

Building a hemi is contagious. You might find that you simply can't live without one of your own by the time you're done. :cool:
 
#16 ·
willys36@aol.com said:
A little pricey to build but, for a hot rod, it is a 1-time expense! Mine has been together since '95 (30,000 miles) and still running strong.
They do last. A good friend of mine in Mass. has been running extended belhousing 331's (bored to 354) in his 34 Ford for 37 years. He drives his car to Louisville every year and then goes on to Salt Lake for Speed Week and back to Mass. Has over 160000 miles on his car and is only on his second block. (He runs 4 duces, 4 speed and dual 6 and 12 volt electrical systems.) The guy is an electrical guru and wires street rods for extra cash. He is also a walking talking hemi encyclopedia. Wish I knew 1/10th what he's forgotten over the years. He has a section in Tex Smith's Hemi book. His name is Skip Readio so if you have the book you'll know who he is. I used to be a BBC guy and he's the one that hooked me on Hemis years ago. (He also looks a lot like Jesus when dressed in a toga.) :D
 
#18 ·
I was really glad to find this post. I just picked up a 55 Desoto with a 291. A bit of an orphan, I know.

I haven't worked on a Hemi wince 1963 when I brought a 38 2 dr sedan with a (very) early 51 Hemi...I dropped one of the lifters in the pit (old service pit we filled with garbage) couldn't find it and had a hell of a time trying to find a replacement. Finally changed them all to a later unit.

This is a running motor and has either 31k or 131k or whatever on it. Starts and runs fine no smoke or bad noise. I would like to upgrade it. I've found hotheads and several others with the later oil pump nd HEI set ups.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
 
#19 ·
Old hemi any good?

NAIRB said:
1: (AVAILABILITY) Be careful when purchasing one of these old guys. They are very popular and allot of unscrupulous guys will sell some piece of junk that has been sitting outside since 1960. Your best bet is to buy one out of an old car that is still free, and has always had a hood on it.

2:(COST) .

3:(INTERCHANGEABILITY)
4: (SIZE), .

5:(THE LITTLE STUFF) try to start with as complete an engine as you can. They've been out of production for a long time

Now, if you are prepared to deal with these obstacles and added cost, the early hemi is a great rod engine. Powerful, and in my opinion, along with the "W" motor Chevy is one of the hottest looking powerplants you can build.

Do a little homework before you jump into one of these.
NAIRB, I agree with you. I'm currently rebuilding a 259 poly ( :spank: sorry on a hemi site but I love my poly) I was the unlucky guy who bought a Plymouth with a 260 engine. This engine is RAREEEEEEEEEEEE, and I didn't know.
First, to complete Willy's list, add to the dodge engine list the 259 (260) engine for plymouth. The 259 and 270 were used in plymouth 1955/1956, poly in 1955, 1956 I do not know. Poly and hemi are the same engines apart from the head. The block is the same, crank, cam, do interchange on 241-260-270 although the cast-in numbers differ.

When I came here a few month ago I was looking for a replacement camshaft. I did find a brand new remake, original tuning from Chris Nielson. Hothead only does cams with lift. Can be a problem on a poly engine.
But now I have a question about these engines. As this engine is so loved for tuning and hotrodding (extra/extra power) I wonder how this is possible with the quality of the crank inside :confused:.

I'm looking for a replacement crankshaft. I did find 4 over the last two month but they all had a crack. They came out of 241 and 270 dodge engines (car and marine). I'm beginning to wonder, is there a crank in the world that is over 50 years old that doesn't have a crack?
I've heard telling that these engines are so well over dimensioned, that you can re-use a crank with crack and run it for 100,000 miles and not breaking it.
So I would like to have your opinion.
Here is the case and question.

Is it only the crank from a 241-259 (260) and 270 poly and hemi engine that have so much trouble with cracks?

Is there anyone there that did have a crankshaft with a crack and did re-use it, good or bad story.
I would use one if it is safe enough. I only use the car for dayly use, in original dimensions (not rodded).

If there is ca crack in the crank, where is it. and is the direction axial or radial the the bearings.

Is there a guy that rebuilds these cranks?
 
#20 ·
Chris is a great resource. I have used him for several hemi items. I'm surprised he couldn't help w/ your crank search. Also shocked that you are finding only cracked cranks. Where are the cracks on the cranks? Ar they cast iron or forged steel? Hemis only came with forged steel cranks and I always have been under the impression that polys were just hemi short blocks w/ wedge heads. I wouldn't use a cracked crank. No matter how over designed it is and how small the crack, a crack will eventually progress clear thru the part. You migh talk to an old timer machinist about welding and shot-peening the crack or some such old-time magic.
 
#21 ·
willys36@aol.com said:
Ar they cast iron or forged steel? Hemis only came with forged steel cranks and I always have been under the impression that polys were just hemi short blocks w/ wedge heads. I wouldn't use a cracked crank.
the 260 or if you like 259 poly engine is a hemi block with a poly (cheaper) head. You are right about that. I don't know where the crack is. The sellers did check. I thought a lot of rodders used the 241/259/270 block like mentioned this thread. I hope someone to tell me if these cranck are likely to crack or not. I'll call the seller to find out where the crack is.
I even called hotheads. They had a crank but had a crack also.
If forged steel cranks are unlikely to crack, then can you tell me in which engine was it used, 241-259-270.
If you have a source for cranks.........
 
#23 · (Edited)
Hey thanks for the info. When I brought home my 53 International my buddy and I were checking under the hood and both came up with the idea that the perfect engine would be an old style hemi. Unfortunately there isn't alot of info about these engines in our area, try being a ford or amc guy here let alone dodge! It was interesting to find out that the polyphase and the hemi share the same block as I have a guy in town who was telling me he had an old dodge pick up on his property with an engine he was wanting to get rid of, I may have to go check it out. My next questian would be which of the modern 5 speed manual trannys would hold up behind this engine, it is going in a truck that just looks better with the stick in the middle and I am planning on building this to be a long distance crusier.
 
#24 ·
old Hemi's

AC/DC said:
I was just wondering if the old hemi's like the 270 Red Ram and the 331s equal the 426 hemis? First of all I understand the cubic inch difference, I mean are they "ahead" of other engines of equal cubic inch? With the same basic design I would say yes but I want to hear from people who work/run them. What is the interchangeability of parts(rods,cranks,heads,blocks and so on)with the small block hemis? I know the 426 and 392 are in their own class, just want to know about the small blocks.
Basically, where do I go to learn about these? Where do I get rebuild parts? How to identify the difference between a 270 or 331. How to identify if it is a 270 or 331. Hell I'm probably wrong on the cubic inch!! Need/want to learn! Give me your favorite sites to visit. Thank you!!
I have a wedsite at my shop that deal strickly with hemi's. gives all the numbers for the different sizes. If you haven't found it yet let me know and I'll look it up for you. My first car was a red ram 315ci.in hemi. What I wouldn't give to have it back now.
T
 
#25 ·
old hemi's

I have a wedsite at my shop that deal strickly with hemi's. gives all the numbers for the different sizes. If you haven't found it yet let me know and I'll look it up for you. My first car was a red ram 315 cu.in hemi. What I wouldn't give to have it back now! I didn't mean to repost you add, and not sure how I did.
T
 
#26 ·


sicksixseven said:
Would you look at that! Thats a HEMI in a Chevy! That better be photochopped...


Sam
Not at all. Fits like a glove and has a LOT more class than any SBC ever made.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top