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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2009, 06:27 PM
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With soda being so delicate once you see a bondo spot and you need to leave it you can just dust over the area until all the paint is removed leaving you with just the bondo. We have an Environmental Cleanup company scoop up the sand and soda and dispose of it properly.

That is an awesome site you found. The FAQ on it pretty much sums up everything about soda, IMO. The only thing on that site that kinda caught my eye was the section about not having to re-profile the metal after blasting. I'm not so sure about that. I've always sanded with 180 or coarser.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2009, 07:26 PM
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OK, thanks, updated the article again.

Found this page with more details on Holdtight 102.

Also started to add more details on the actual soda blasting medium used. Looks like you can use pure baking soda, but the particle size is usually larger. Some manufacturers add various flow agents and anti-caking ingredients too, but those could have various environmental and cleanup issues associated with them. Arm & Hammer, the well-known manufacturer of baking soda, also manufactures various soda blasting media under their Armex subsidiary. Here's the Armex product listing. Armex also listed case studies of soda blasting used in automotive/aerospace industries. Added that to the "references" section of the wiki article.

jeremyb -- can we use the pics you've posted? If so, and you have high-res files available, can you upload them to the wiki?

We could also still use a pic of a paint job ruined from improper removal of baking soda residue. That's a key photo for this article, really crucial to driving home the point of residue removal.

The wiki article is starting to really take shape. Latest version is here: Soda blasting. And, here's the latest red-text update.
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:04 AM
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as i've said many times there is a lot of bad info going around here. before you decide to soda blast a car you best do your home work . if you do it and it fails you are on your own and i doubt very seriously the soda blaster is going to pay for your repaint. this is just one example i have recieved today . all 3 of my paint suppliers have the same answer. you soda blast it's yours.

PPG has no recommendation for Soda Blasted Metal and do not warranty anything that has been Soda Blasted. You best bet for something that has been Soda Blasted would be to too thoroughly rinse it then DA sand it with 180 grit then go Epoxy. But the Warranty would still be void because it was Soda Blasted at one point in time.

so barry knives is not the only mfg smart enough to stay away from it .
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:30 AM
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Washing after soda blasting

I wash the cars with dish washing soap and warm water, and rinse. Then wash with hold tight product. I use a green scrub pad and the recommended ratio of hold tight 102. You do not rinse the car again after washing with hold tight. This allows the car to dry with the hold tight product and keeps the vehicle from flash rusting for 4 or 5 days. Then your painter should follow their regular pre paint prep.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:28 AM
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still voids your warranty . and we can add sherman williams to the list.
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:53 PM
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shine -- do you have links to those warranties? I can't find them in Google, and I'd like to quote the exact text from the warranties in the wiki article.
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:45 PM
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email any of the large paint manufactures and that is the email you will get back. we went through this a year or so ago. doesn't it seem odd every time we do it is new posters with all the info ?? no one i have contacted in the industry will warranty if it has been soda blasted. i'm still waiting to hear why this is the right way to do it. all i see is negative .
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 03:00 PM
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OK, thanks, I'll do that. Yes, new posters are to be taken with a grain of salt, as always.

Even with the article and all of the accompanying research, our central position on soda blasting seems unaltered. Here's the crux point, quoted from the Reasons against using soda blasting section of the wiki article:

Quote:
Overall, soda blasting is probably not the best choice for the hobbyist or do-it-yourselfer.
One of the main purposes of the soda blasting wiki article is to make any future pissing matches on this subject complete wastes of time, because every pro and con opinion has already been documented in the article, and nobody has any piss left to piss out. We did something similar in the wiki with this article: Rust encapsulators.

On another note, a member PM'd me and suggested that we start a similar article on dry ice blasting. I've got it started with one sentence so far: Dry ice blasting.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 03:26 PM
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dry ice ? good god what next. molecular diffusion . those types of bs post do nothing but confuse people who have very little knowledge to begin with. i think some of these google experts need to get a life and stop posting what they don't know or take their infomercials elsewhere.
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:46 PM
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Please point out the bad info here, please. Prove me wrong. I don't blame paint manufacturers for saying it voids the warranty. They have to say that to save their butt, just like they tell you not to use any other product under or over theirs. Business 101. If I use HOK Candy, and put my Sikkens clear over it, voided warranty on both products. Does it work? No problems thus far. Soda got a bad rap in the beginning because people didn't understand the product and mis-used it, therefore leading everyone to into the mess its in now. Over the past 5-6 years we have done AT LEAST 40 cars that have been sodablasted and not ONE has had a paint failure. That's not even counting the cars that were sodablasted that went to other shops and individuals. But yet this stuff is baaaaaaaaaaad.

I will stand by all the information that I have given and the info on the wiki article until SOMEONE can prove me wrong. I have YET to see proof of a paint failure from sodablasting when the right procedures were followed.

It's the right way to do it because before long, sand is OUT. Completely. Our media supplier doesn't even sell sand and advises against it for health and environmental reasons. We've used all of the blasting medias that are offered to us in bulk quantity..and SODA is the most productive and efficient. No it doesn't remove rust, but other abrasive medias do and we use the finest blasting sand for that. SODA is quicker than sand and all of the other harsh abrasives that we have used. The only thing that comes close is Plastic media. We don't have a reclaim system and with the price of that stuff, you are shooting yourself in the foot trying to use it as high as it is. We HAVE to use media that is readily available to us. Sometimes blasting is going on 7 days a week during the summer and spring time. No other media that we have used (other than plastic) comes CLOSE to the efficiency of removing automotive paint as SODA does (that is environmentally safe). No other media that we have use comes CLOSE to the efficiency of rust removal as the finest grade blasting sand that we use.


As far as dry ice goes our blaster happens to work at an Environmental Cleanup company also, and they do all kinds of blasting. Mainly water blasting drums, containers and pipes for Industrial Companies. They also use dry-ice..and while it is possible to dry ice blast a car, you better have a fat checkbook. Highly doubt it will ever make it to the automotive industry with success. But lets leave all that for another thread.

*And just to clarify, when we first started the soda blasting, yes we did have some minor paint failures. But guess what, it was on our end not the soda. But instead of cursing the product and yelling at our paint company and telling everyone not to use soda, we LEARNED how to use it and LEARNED how to prep the metal afterwords. No problems ever since.

Last edited by jeremyb; 08-10-2009 at 04:38 PM.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 05:06 PM
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shine -- if you have knowledge on dry ice blasting (I don't, and only had one introductory sentence to add), please add it to the wiki article. Some wiki articles, like the Rust encapsulators article, end up largely being warnings against using particular products or processes, which is, IMO, a perfectly good reason for us to write an article.

I've emailed PPG and Sherwin-Williams so that we can get those warranties, and add the relevant parts to the article.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:38 PM
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from ppg
Sir,



Thank you for your interest in PPG.



PPG has no recommendation for Soda Blasted Metal and do not warranty anything that has been Soda Blasted. You best bet for something that has been Soda Blasted would be to too thoroughly rinse it then DA sand it with 180 grit then go Epoxy. But the Warranty would still be void because it was Soda Blasted at one point in time.

from sw

Shine,
Below is the information we have on Soda Blasting. There are no guarantees.
Thank you,
Rose Gasper
Customer Service Rep
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 06:54 PM
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jon , there are many different medias to use. each one has it's intended use and place in industry. sand is the absolute worst media to use on sheet metal but it still has it's champions here even after trying to explain the chemical reactions it causes.
dry ice would be a total waste of time to get into .

we got into the same thing with acid etch but there is no talking to some people. you mention acid to a paint mfg and you will get no where.

we have tried to explain over and over the problems with acid under paint but it did no good. i can clean a body with acid and not have a problem but i have been doing this since 1967. 8 out of 10 guys doing their own will miss something . not because they did not try but because they do not do it for a living . i'm not about to recommend using acid of any kind. not when there are user friendly medias that are safe, inexpensive and easy to use with little to no risk of a paint failure.
ask barry how many calls he gets weekly about failures over acid .
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 08:04 PM
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Dry Ice blasting is used often to clean electric motors and other delicate parts in industry where introducing any blasting media would be a disadvantage. It's main advantage of course is that it doesn't leave any residue except the dirt/paint etc it strips off. I do know it is a relatively mild stripping media.

What the salesmen won't tell you is that it chills the area that it strips quite a bit so in humid conditions can introduce condensation especially on metal. As Jeremyb said it is also quite expensive so might be overpriced for car market, I also have no idea if it leaves an anchor pattern so shine might be right that it is not suited for cars.

I have no idea if dry ice would work on a tough paint like an epoxy primer but I did find a video on google (sorry shine ) that shows dry ice stripping paint off a car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_9nI...eature=related
and it seemed to work ok for the thin paint I saw it strip off some generator casing.

Last edited by scrimshaw; 08-10-2009 at 08:53 PM.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 08:07 PM
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Rounded up more pics for the article. Not sure where they would fit in. I can get the high-res files of any of them I will just have to do some digging through my archives.

I agree with shine that dry ice a waste of time, atleast in it's current form...of course though I wouldn't know of a better or different form It doesn't leave an anchor pattern like soda, and to my knowledge you could get probably 10 cars blasted with any other media for the price of doing one with dry ice. Who knows what the future holds though.
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