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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 10:25 PM
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Updated the Dry ice blasting article; thanks guys. Looks like we won't need much there besides a paragraph or so.

Also added a Sandblasting article. We have a Media blasting article, but I think it might be best to have a separate article to address the "sand" issue. That will probably just end up as a general list of reasons not to use sand as a medium.

shine -- for the Soda blasting article, I just added in a link to your post that contains the PPG email. We can update that with the exact text in their printed warranty when they get back to me.

jeremyb -- thanks, I need to review the pics next, and add some in to the article.

We also need a pic of a paint job that failed because of improper soda blasting post-prep.

What we really need for the wiki is a list of blasting media, with a bit of detail on each. The more common or controversial media (soda, sand, etc.) could have their own pages. Something like this chart, but more hotrodding-focused, and more detailed.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2009, 06:23 AM
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because it is a waste of time scrimshaw. dry ice is not for doing refinish work . why bring up every type of media just to confuse people even more. have you priced dry ice blasting ? have you done it ? i can blow paint and bondo off with my pressure wash but don't intend to spend the time it takes to do it. i can have a hull ready for epoxy in 8 to 10 hrs depending on how bad it is. i use the best media available to do the job and only media that is developed for refinishing work. there are about 10 " no harm" medias to use but they don't remove rust. i'm not blasting a car twice. what's next ? building a huge vat to dip a car in molasses .
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Old 08-11-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
because it is a waste of time scrimshaw. dry ice is not for doing refinish work . why bring up every type of media just to confuse people even more. have you priced dry ice blasting ? have you done it ? i can blow paint and bondo off with my pressure wash but don't intend to spend the time it takes to do it. i can have a hull ready for epoxy in 8 to 10 hrs depending on how bad it is. i use the best media available to do the job and only media that is developed for refinishing work. there are about 10 " no harm" medias to use but they don't remove rust. i'm not blasting a car twice. what's next ? building a huge vat to dip a car in molasses .
I donít see any confusion; in fact I see a consensus between everyone who has written about it that it is not suitable for cars.

I did not bring it up in this thread nor did I ask Jon to start a wiki on it and I certainly didnít recommend it to anyone for refinish work (what post were you reading?!). I did ask a question about the process in another thread a while ago but I never received a reply (I think I even mentioned that cost might be prohibitive).

I had seen it done a long time ago on a generator and wondered why it wasnít used on cars and now I understand there are several reasons why. Isnít that what the wiki and this forum is all about?

I didnít realize that the operation of the equipment was a requirement to contribute to this thread.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:12 PM
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Dry ice blasting itself may be a waste of time, but writing a wiki article on it will probably save us time. Now we have a short article that explains what dry ice blasting is, and why it's a poor choice for automotive blasting. Here are the first three sentences of the article:

Quote:
Dry ice blasting is the use of the solid form of carbon dioxide ("dry ice") as an abrasive blasting medium. Because of the prohibitive cost of dry ice blasting, it's simply not currently economically justifiable for stripping paint from body panels. In addition, dry ice may not be abrasive enough to remove all paint coatings.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:57 PM
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Still waiting on my email back from Akzo Nobel. The word from my rep today echoes the statements I've already made. As long as it's prepped correctly they will stand by it. With that being said, I was also told they don't prefer it because of the headache they receive from the improper handling after being blasted, which is understandable. In no way shape or form does that mean that if you ever have a paint problem they will throw their hands up because it has been sodablasted and tell you "oh well". We've had our fair share of paint problems over the years and not once has that happened. But in this situation, they are dealing with a business and people who do it for a living not the average do it yourselfer or hobbyist.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:43 PM
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Cool, thanks. Try to find out if we can put their position in the wiki article, or, even better, if they'll publish it online, and we can just link to it.

I heard back from Sherwin Williams. They said that they're working on an official response, but, in the short term, they told me that they do not recommend the use of soda blasting as a preparation step with their products. Hopefully, we'll get an online version of their warranty that specifically lays out their reasons, and how the use of soda blasting impacts their warranty. Good call shine on dropping them an email.

On the plus side, they had nice things to say about the wiki article .

I'm looking forward to getting everything down in black-and-white, so all future inquiries on soda blasting can just be referred to the wiki article.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:58 AM
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That's why I emailed them also to get something really official. IMO it's better to get wording from corporate/office because to the general do it yourselfer / hobbyist it is more concrete. What my rep tells and me and other businesses and his actions might be different to somone off the street. They might not recommend it to the hobbyist and say it voids the warranty, but I've never heard it told to me. I should have something back by the weekend.
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Old 08-13-2009, 07:49 AM
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I have been in on every thread about sand blasting because of the damage I have seen it cause. On the soda blasting, I have little experiance but as a paint rep we did have a car that was soda blasted and the paint, primer and all came off like a friggin decal, TWICE.

Sure it CAN be properly prepped, but why? I have to ask as Shine has,

1. What does soda do that can't be done with other medias?
2. If it does SOMETHING better, is this something a deal breaker?

I havn't seen a reason that using soda is going to do anything so great as to out weigh the negatives. The ODDS of a failure are just too great in my opinion.


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Old 08-13-2009, 05:10 PM
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i build for a living. i do the blasting , metal work , the painting , assembly , glass work, wiring, a/c and everything else except upholstery. do you ? do you own a blasting business ? have you actually research the blasting business ? have you refinished cars for 40 years ? i have seen , used and thrown away most every new and improved product to come along. i have never said soda can not be done. i have said over and over it must be done exactly right. just like using osphro or any acid to remove rust . they are not user friendly. you screw up just a little bit and you have a bubbled up mess. just like chemstrip on vettes. what i have said is the risk is there , it's even worse when done by a hobbyist . just what impact will corn cob or walnut shells have on the environment ? you've got your own agenda here so rave on . it's real easy to talk when the warranty doesn't come from your pocket.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:34 PM
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The "environmentally friendly" argument is lingering, and needs to be addressed and properly documented, because it's a big selling point for soda.

Like others, I'm not seeing how soda is any more or less environmentally friendly than corn/walnuts. It almost feels like a case of green marketing, or even possibly borderline greenwashing.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:56 PM
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Any car taken down to the bare metal and improperly prepped can cause a paint failure. Does soda have a few more steps involved to insure that doesn't happen? Sure, but it isn't like you have to spend days prepping the metal. When the blaster sticks with soda, even after using a wide range of media (including corn cob) that tells me something. Does that make it the best on the market? Not necessarily, but it's what he's had the best experience with. And I am speaking all of this when the warranty IS coming out of my pocket. I take care of all the blasting, metalwork, bodywork, painting and finish work. I wouldn't put hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars into a job that I would have to do over again for free, if I wasn't confident about sodablasting.
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:30 PM
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Re-opening this thread.

Added a photo to the article, thanks jeremyb. Here's the latest version: Soda blasting.

I heard back from Sherwin-Williams. They've confirmed that soda blasting does not void their warranty, although they don't encourage the process. Their rep emailed me a copy of their warranty, which I've uploaded to the wiki.

Here's the email from Sherwin-Williams, reprinted with permission:

Quote:

Jon,

Thanks for your inquiry on our website regarding soda blasting. I have attached a copy of our warranty for your reference. I don't believe we specifically identify soda blasting as nullifying the warranty, but I can tell you we don't encourage the process. I read your referenced Wiki article on soda blasting and I found it accurate, especially as it relates to the problems associated with soda blasting and automotive finishes.

Like most paint companies, we have experienced poor results in the past regarding this process as a surface preparation step. We actively discourage our customers from utilizing this process by explaining the potential problems and offering other alternatives.

The comments contained in this e-mail are available for public posting.




Michael Pellett
Dallas Automotive Training Center
(972) 606-****
**********@sherwin.com

So, the article is coming along nicely. We still need:

--Details on how to neutralize soda. Vinegar/water? What ratio?

--Response from PPG and other major paint manufacturers as to how the use of sodablasting affects their warranties. We also need confirmation from SPI about this. While SPI specifically recommends against using soda, does it actually void their warranty? Where is their warranty? Online?

--A nice photograph of a panel that has been improperly prepped after soda blasting, then painted. We want to see the paint failing, because of the improper residue removal.
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Old 08-26-2009, 05:28 PM
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[QUOTE=Jon]

--Details on how to neutralize soda. Vinegar/water? What ratio?
*********************************************

I find it real interesting that the two infomercials writers on here, never have come out and stated how to neutralize.
THAT is why SPI was the first to put in writing, "no Soda"

Because we make no bones about our stand the three of us that answer the tech lines may get as many as 10-20 calls a week how and why?

I have tested two procedures and these are the ONLY ones I will recommend, these tests were done in a lab setting with an adhesion tester and adhesion testers do not lie.

First way:
With a pressure washer and simple green or purple power wet the car and while the car is wet, rinse with a hose, do this at least two times and I recommend three times, and remember, if any of this residue re-dries, water will not neutralize it and it must be retreated.

Second way:
Dish soap with warm water and a red scuff pad scrub a panel and rinse with a hose before drying, we again recommend the car be done this way, three times just to hope you don't have a residue left.

I haver not tested vinegar or their new recommended cleaner and don't plan on it.
SPI
*****************************************

We also need confirmation from SPI about this. While SPI specifically recommends against using soda, does it actually void their warranty?
*********************************************

Sorry there will be NONE, when epoxy fails with lack of adhesion there are only four things that cause this.

1)Spraying in cold temperatures.
2)Washing the metal with lacquer thinner.
3)Acid film.
4)Soda film.
Assuming mixed right.
SPI
************************************

With all this said, I have at least 8-9 soda blasters around the country that are SPI customers and they know the procedure and never have issues, some insist on spraying the epoxy themselves, just so there are no prepping issues.

When shops call us it takes an average of 30 minutes to explain what to do and what not to do and why, 90% after the education will normally say something like, I'm not laying awake at night wondering if this car is coming back after its done.

Now my question to the Infomercials guys!
As a vette guy, I'm now on number 76 or 78 with the four I have now, so tell me, since you are experts, how would you Neutralize a 54-62 and a 63-69 and a 70-80.
Same thing? Same way? Let see the shop that went out of business in NC had a 63 and a 67 flake off and a 69 chevelle and a 69 Z28 flake off, all these years he had used only sand and walnut shells on the vettes and the soda yahoo, told him, teat it like you always do.

This is the best I can do here Jon, as this and acid threads kinda want to make me puke.

Last edited by BarryK; 08-26-2009 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 08-26-2009, 07:56 PM
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I can only assume that I am being referred to as one of the "infomercials guys"...right? If you go back and read my posts, I've already explained how to neutralize soda.

DO NOT use vinegar, as vinegar has water properties in it. Instantly flashes the metal.

As far as the vettes goes see the attatchments. All 5 of them, sodablasted. And that's just only only the vettes completed in our shop.

You neutralize the soda the same way on glass, they key is getting it all dry, which is where the sun and our baking booth comes in to play, in addition to blowing dry.

I sense a lot of sarcasm, BarryK, as if I haven't had any experience working with soda. Everything I've been writing on here I've just been pulling out of thin air I guess.
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Last edited by jeremyb; 08-26-2009 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:57 PM
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can you handle the truth?

I can't wait as other paint manufacturers get back to us with the same info. Jon I greatly appreciate the reopening of this thread. I hope it is read by all the hot rodders forum. Soda blasting has been frowned on by many "professionals" that write here for a long time. Soda blasting is not the hideous monster it has been made out to be. With some more positive warranty feedback, and proper information people on the forum will be able to make more sense of the whole process. It will be interesting to see if the tides now change with popular opinion. Jon thank you again for making sure the info posted is factual.

Last edited by push rod; 08-27-2009 at 01:04 PM.
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