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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by push rod
It will be interesting to see if the tides now change with popular opinion. Jon thank you again for making sure the info posted is factual.
It will never change's the way I feel about it..

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2009, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
It will never change's the way I feel about it..
Did you personally have a bad experience with it? Or know someone who had? I am curious why you are so against it. I have used it, and have had fantastic results. All are entitled to their opinion, I was just wondering what its faults were for you? As more paint manufacturers give the same news about warranty, I guarantee popular opinion will change. The topic has been argued to death here, by informed and uninformed parties. The statement about sherwin williams warranty being voided, has been proven wrong. Lets keep the factual info coming, and keep disproving the bad info. At one time it was thought that the world was flat. We all know better than that now don't we?
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2009, 01:13 PM
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proven wrong ? i can only forward what was sent to me. i could care less what you use. it's your car , your risk . i will go with what i know also.


Shine,
Below is the information we have on Soda Blasting. There are no guarantees.
Thank you,
Rose Gasper
Customer Service Rep

Sodium Bicarbonate (soda blasting) as a stripping method has specific benefits over other methods of paint stripping. Water will not cause flash rusting when the Sodium Bicarbonate is rinsed from the blasted metal surface. Normally rust will not appear on bare metal for several days or even weeks after rinsing. Contrary to sandblasting, soda blasting does not impinge metal surfaces. Anodic and cathodic structure will not be effected and electrolytic substances are newtralized and eliminated from the surface.
If this method is chosen to remove an existing finish, it is extremely important to remove all of the sodium bicarbonate before proceeding with the refinish process. Application of a primer with a minimal acid concentration such as etching fillers, vinyl wash, or metal preps, will react with sodium bicarbonate. This will emit carbon dioxide potentially causing blistering of the paint and then total delamination of the paint and undercoats.
When using soda blasting in automotive refinishing it is essential that the following steps are adhered to:
1. Observe recommendations specified by the company that produces the sodium bicarbonate media and the manufacturer of the soda blasting equipment.
2. Before applying any refinish materials, thoroughly clean the surface with soap and water, preferably with a pressure washer, then dry.
3. Inspect the surface for any white residue. If a residue is found, repeat the above step.
4. Once surface is thoroughly clean, and no residue is found, follow our specific recommendations for bare substrates.
This information is intended to be used as a educational piece. Use it to help your body shops be more informed on this type of paint removal. The more we can educate the shop woners and technicians, the better we can set ourselves apart from the competition.





Rose A. Gasper/CLE/Sherwin-Williams
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2009, 01:43 PM
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It's true that, at least in the case of Sherwin-Williams, "warranty voiding" was a myth, or, at very least, a misstatement. However, it's a complex, heavily-nuanced issue that doesn't solely hinge on a black-and-white interpretation of does/doesn't void the warranty.

1. While SW confirmed that it doesn't technically void the warranty, they strongly recommended against its use. "Voids the warranty" is a common phrase used in hotrodding, and is almost a colloquialism of "the company doesn't want you to use it."

2. If you read the actual text of the warranty, you'll find that it's extremely strict. For example, it states that: "the mixing and application of the Paint System (and the applicable undercoat system that is specified on Exhibit 1) must be performed by a Qualified Paint Technician". Here's how the warranty defines "Qualified Paint Technician":

Quote:
Section 1.3 "Qualified Paint Technician"

Shall mean an individual who:

(a) has a minimum of one (1) year experience in automotive refinishing through automotive body shop and/or vocational school experience,

(b) attends a class at a training facility of Company's that focuses on the Contract, all of the applicable Paint Systems, application techniques, and equipment.

(c) has received a certificate from Company demonstrating successful completion of Company-sponsored class, and

(d) receives an updated certificate from Company every two (2) years that demonstrates successful completion of applicable training relating to the Paint Systems at Company's training facility.
So, if you haven't successfully completed a Sherwin-Williams class that focuses on the Contract, and received an updated certificate every 2 years that demonstrates completion of Sherwin-Williams training, doesn't that void the warranty?

There are similar strict standards in place for what qualifies as a "Qualified Collision Repair Facility". There are also strict record-keeping requirements, and plenty of other issues that could potentially void the warranty. I would bet that there are only a very small number of people on this forum to whom this warranty would even apply.

3. Various SW reps might have indeed communicated that it voided the warranty, informally, in phone calls, face-to-face, or other such communication. When they saw that it was being published in an article on a large hotrodding site, higher-ups at SW might have stepped in to double-check and confirm. So, shine's position might have indeed been accurately reporting what he was told.

----
It does go to show that, if we want to produce credible articles about warranties or other such company documents, we need to provide the reader with the printed text of the warranty itself, or any other relevant firsthand source document. Fortunately, the warranty is now uploaded to the wiki.


I'm certain that as long as this thread continues, there will be conflicts, fights, and attacks. My goal is to compose an article that both sides agree with -- I want both sides of this debate to agree that the article presents all positions fairly, regardless of whether or not they personally choose to use soda as a blasting medium. Of course there will always be fighting, but, in this case, perhaps we will be fighting for something.

I can put in some more work on the article today.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2009, 03:16 PM
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Just sent out emails to a couple more manufacturers requesting their position on soda blasting, and its effect on their warranties. A list of manufacturers is available in this section of the soda blasting article. If anyone would like me to contact a manufacturer who isn't listed, please just add them to the article and I'll shoot them an email.

PPG still hasn't gotten back to me. I'll follow up with a phone call during the week.

Thanks BarryK for details on neutralizing, for those who don't want to use Holdtight 102 or other commercial, purpose-specific products. I've also updated the article with a link to jeremyb's post cautioning against the use of vinegar -- there are conflicting opinions on that as well.

I'd still like to get a pic of a paint job that has been ruined by improper soda blasting residue removal. If not, we can settle for a generic pic of a paint job blistering or delaminating, as an indication of the type of damage that can occur.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2009, 03:24 PM
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Forgot to add: shine, I'm not ignoring the emails from manufacturers that you've posted. For legal purposes, I don't feel comfortable referencing any official response from a paint manufacturer in the wiki article unless we have their explicit permission to reprint them. S-W has granted that permission, and I'm hoping that the other manufacturers do the same.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2009, 03:34 PM
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And, just added info on soda blasting as "environmentally friendly", in this section of the article. I'm open to further discussion on this point, but, for now, I'm not seeing how soda is any more or less green than corncobs, walnut shells, or similar blast media. The distinction also needs to be made between "baking soda", which is fairly environmentally friendly, and "baking soda blast medium", which often has "flow additives" that may not be environmentally friendly at all. It's a big selling point of soda, and it should be documented.

Anyway, that should do it for today, and I'll pick the article back up during this coming week.
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Old 08-30-2009, 06:02 PM
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The shop I worked at in southern Ca. used a large drum with a tightly meshed screen over the top. The 100% baking soda after use, was then placed on the screen and water poured over it. The baking soda, being water soluble, dissolves leaving only the waste to bag up for landfill. Hundreds of pounds of baking soda waste equated out to only ounces of paint chips to throw out. The water in the drum was then legally dumped in the drain. Baking soda does not harm city sewer water treatment. Thats is why it is better for environment than the other green media(corn cob, walnut shell). Those are not water soluble, and hundreds of pounds of corn cob waste would have to be disposed of, just as walnut would have to be in a landfill. We used 2 different companies for our blasting media. One was natrium, can't remember the other. Both used no additives, only 100%baking soda.

Last edited by push rod; 08-30-2009 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 08-30-2009, 06:13 PM
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More info...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
proven wrong ? i can only forward what was sent to me. i could care less what you use. it's your car , your risk . i will go with what i know also.


Shine,
Below is the information we have on Soda Blasting. There are no guarantees.
Thank you,
Rose Gasper
Customer Service Rep

Sodium Bicarbonate (soda blasting) as a stripping method has specific benefits over other methods of paint stripping. Water will not cause flash rusting when the Sodium Bicarbonate is rinsed from the blasted metal surface. Normally rust will not appear on bare metal for several days or even weeks after rinsing. Contrary to sandblasting, soda blasting does not impinge metal surfaces. Anodic and cathodic structure will not be effected and electrolytic substances are newtralized and eliminated from the surface.
If this method is chosen to remove an existing finish, it is extremely important to remove all of the sodium bicarbonate before proceeding with the refinish process. Application of a primer with a minimal acid concentration such as etching fillers, vinyl wash, or metal preps, will react with sodium bicarbonate. This will emit carbon dioxide potentially causing blistering of the paint and then total delamination of the paint and undercoats.
When using soda blasting in automotive refinishing it is essential that the following steps are adhered to:
1. Observe recommendations specified by the company that produces the sodium bicarbonate media and the manufacturer of the soda blasting equipment.
2. Before applying any refinish materials, thoroughly clean the surface with soap and water, preferably with a pressure washer, then dry.
3. Inspect the surface for any white residue. If a residue is found, repeat the above step.
4. Once surface is thoroughly clean, and no residue is found, follow our specific recommendations for bare substrates.
This information is intended to be used as a educational piece. Use it to help your body shops be more informed on this type of paint removal. The more we can educate the shop woners and technicians, the better we can set ourselves apart from the competition.





Rose A. Gasper/CLE/Sherwin-Williams

Interesting, would or could we elborate on what line # 4 may consist of ? Would a degreaser be needed next followed by a 180 grit sanding then epoxy ?

Or Maybe a extra rinsing with Holdtight 102....? then the degreaser and so on..?

Step #4 for us newbies is critical and hoping Shine you may have some ideas on this even though I know you are not a fan of Soda ?

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Old 08-30-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by push rod
Thats is why it is better for environment than the other green media(corn cob, walnut shell). Those are not water soluble, and hundreds of pounds of corn cob waste would have to be disposed of, just as walnut would have to be in a landfill. The only two companies that we used were natrium and armex. Both used no additives, only 100%baking soda. They are the only 2 commercially available products we used.
--------------------------------------------------

Wow, thanks, I had no idea!
My house is in the middle of 2.7 acres and I have 8-11 Black walnut trees on the property in the woods.

The plant is on acres and behind the plant there are 4-6 walnut trees in the woods.
Those damn trees drop walnuts on the ground every year about the end of September, I will be sure to pick them up and put in the dumpster.

Bunch of damn farmers in north GA that grow corn, next time I drive by perhaps I could just pull out the 40 and fire a few rounds at them.

To think the Govt is growing corn for gas, I just can't believe all the conspiracies against me, think I will go have a cigarette and a beer to fight off all the airborne germs and polution.
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Old 08-30-2009, 06:34 PM
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Don't really know what you are trying to prove with those types of remarks.

You have to dispose of the waste due to the paint chips and what not being mixed in with the media being used, obviously. Really don't see in what way he was saying that walnuts contaminate the environment, themselves.
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Old 08-30-2009, 06:44 PM
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My statement wasn't about you and your walnut trees barry. Some people work at shops in a big city and can't dump their trash in a field like hillbillies. There for it goes to a landfill. When that is the situation, soda cost less to dispose of and creates less waste. That seem like a positive point to me. Why don't you go burn some tires in your yard, or maybe go dump a drum of diesel fuel over your grass. I have tried to share what I know and keep getting hassled by members of the forum. If you hate soda so much, quit writing about it. Sounds like you have absolutely nothing better to do than argue.

Last edited by push rod; 08-30-2009 at 07:33 PM.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2009, 06:55 PM
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Yes, Natrium is listed as strictly baking soda, but in a larger particle size than the baking soda typically used for baking food. Armex produces a variety of baking soda abrasives, with various additives described as "rinse accelerators", "moisture control systems", and "flow formulas". Here's a list of the "Armex Blast Media Family of Products". Which one is 100% baking soda?

I understand that, after blasting, the soda can be screened and rinsed out to separate it, and then sent down the drain, whereas walnut shells and corncobs cannot, because they're not water-soluble. That's an environmental plus. However, what about the fact that soda can only be used once? There are manufacturing/transport costs associated with a single-use product that affect its environmental benefits, and many "green" claims are debunked along those lines. There is also the reasonable argument that walnut shells and corn cobs are typically discarded products, and their production is not being ramped up to serve the abrasive blasting market.

I would think that a reasonable environmental argument can be made both ways, which, IMO, calls into question the validity of soda as environmentally superior.
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Old 08-30-2009, 07:09 PM
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You have a point with the manufacturing costs. But anything better for the environment seems to cost more. I think the argument about it not being superior due to transport costs and its being a one use product is a bit weak. The fact that it is green and saves landfill space makes it superior. For every ton of blasted material you have a few pounds of landfill waste. How can that be trumped?

Last edited by push rod; 08-30-2009 at 07:15 PM.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2009, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by push rod
Did you personally have a bad experience with it? Or know someone who had? I am curious why you are so against it.
I had to work on a car that was soda blasted, And it was a mess. And I'm not into watering down a car that has just been blasted.. Not here in La.. It will rust before you get the primer mixed.. Like I said it's a big mess, and I don't want it in my shop..And I'm not about to go toe to toe with anyone about it..If you are anyone else like's it, Go for it.. And good luck with it..
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