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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2009, 09:37 PM
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From the perspective of a production manager any process that introduces another level of complexity to the work increases exponentially the likely hood of some sort of failure in the finished product. This is the major reason not to use soda or acid in autobody refinishing.

I use a product called vitro grit which is a crushed glass and is chemically inert and will not interfere with adhesion of paint products. As far as the the environmental issue the glass is obtained from bottles and other glass items that are being tossed anyway so we get some use from this material before it goes to the landfill. Also the vitro grit is accepted by Carb and other pollution authorities as an acceptable material and it does not contain free silica like sand does. if for some reason some media is left after the cleanup all that one may have is some trash in the paint which is easily dealt with.

Sam

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2009, 05:38 AM
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soda is not an issue with me as i will not use it because of warranty problems. since i use all spi products and spi specifically states not to use it. i see no advantage in using a media that leaves no anchor pattern. this will only add expense and time to the job. that alone is enough reason for me to not use it. there are many other medias that leave no anchor pattern which i don't use . the whole point of blasting is to get the metal ready for resurfacing by removing the finish and leaving an anchor pattern. i bring a car from the blast room to the wash bay then straight to the paint booth. i use no solvents of any kind before epoxy.

stan, all i can suggest is to get it clean and sand with 80 grit on a da. keeping in mind any area not sanded will have a potential for adhesion failure.

i will be interested in the reply you get from ppg jon. we'll see if it is the same response i got. so far i have heard from 5 .
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2009, 10:18 AM
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push rod -- I agree that the transport cost argument is the weaker of the two. However, this factor is often overlooked when something is presented as "green". For example, the confusion surrounding the belief that eating locally-grown food equates to less carbon emissions.

I see the point about soda's water solubility, and how, if the soda is pure sodium bicarbonate, without any environmentally-troublesome additives, then it can be screened, rinsed, and washed down the drain. It's a bonus benefit of using soda. Nevertheless, I think we're all in agreement that soda (and corncobs, and walnut shells, and crushed recycled glass) are all among the more environmentally-friendly blast media.

----

OneMoreTime -- I've just added info on VitroGrit to the soda blasting article. I used it as an example of other media that are environmentally-friendly, and included a link to the VitroGrit site.

----

shine -- I'll post manufacturers' responses in this thread as I receive them. I agree that lack of an anchor pattern is a "con" for soda, and it's been added to the "Reasons against using soda blasting" section of the article. I've also included a link to this chart comparing Mohs' hardness ratings of abrasives, which discusses the relationship between Mohs hardness scale and anchor patterns.

----

Everyone -- feel free to edit the wiki article directly. Ultimately, it's going to receive much more traffic than this thread, and will in turn affect the blasting media choices of many more people.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2009, 02:36 PM
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--Heard back from PPG. They confirmed that they don't recommend using soda blasting for surface preparation. I'm still awaiting reprint rights from them, and more warranty details.

--I also got a call back from Sikkens (Akzo Nobel). They're looking into this further, and will be getting back to me.

--Haven't yet heard back from Valspar. They've previously reviewed the John Deere Blitz Black paint wiki article, so I would think that they'd like to offer their input on this issue as well.

--I also contacted Kirker and DuPont today, but have yet to hear back from either.

So, that's: DuPont, Kirker, PPG, Sherwin-Williams, Sikkens, SPI, and Valspar.

Are there any other paint or primer manufacturers that anyone would like me to contact regarding their position on soda blasting as a prep step for their products?
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:03 PM
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You might try BASF, as far as I know BASF sent a letter to their jobbers about Soda two weeks after SPI started warning about the soda problems.

Not real sure I see the point in all this but BASF is a key player in the high dollar car arena, so they deserve to be heard.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
proven wrong ? i can only forward what was sent to me. i could care less what you use. it's your car , your risk . i will go with what i know also.


Shine,
Below is the information we have on Soda Blasting. There are no guarantees.
Thank you,
Rose Gasper
Customer Service Rep

Sodium Bicarbonate (soda blasting) as a stripping method has specific benefits over other methods of paint stripping. Water will not cause flash rusting when the Sodium Bicarbonate is rinsed from the blasted metal surface. Normally rust will not appear on bare metal for several days or even weeks after rinsing. Contrary to sandblasting, soda blasting does not impinge metal surfaces. Anodic and cathodic structure will not be effected and electrolytic substances are newtralized and eliminated from the surface.
If this method is chosen to remove an existing finish, it is extremely important to remove all of the sodium bicarbonate before proceeding with the refinish process. Application of a primer with a minimal acid concentration such as etching fillers, vinyl wash, or metal preps, will react with sodium bicarbonate. This will emit carbon dioxide potentially causing blistering of the paint and then total delamination of the paint and undercoats.
When using soda blasting in automotive refinishing it is essential that the following steps are adhered to:
1. Observe recommendations specified by the company that produces the sodium bicarbonate media and the manufacturer of the soda blasting equipment.
2. Before applying any refinish materials, thoroughly clean the surface with soap and water, preferably with a pressure washer, then dry.
3. Inspect the surface for any white residue. If a residue is found, repeat the above step.
4. Once surface is thoroughly clean, and no residue is found, follow our specific recommendations for bare substrates.
This information is intended to be used as a educational piece. Use it to help your body shops be more informed on this type of paint removal. The more we can educate the shop woners and technicians, the better we can set ourselves apart from the competition.





Rose A. Gasper/CLE/Sherwin-Williams



Question on LIne #3:

(Application of a primer with a minimal acid concentration such as etching fillers, vinyl wash, or metal preps, will react with sodium bicarbonate. This will emit carbon dioxide potentially causing blistering of the paint and then total delamination of the paint and undercoats.)

I am not a paint guy just soaking up what I can..... but would this apply to all Epoxy primers ? or is this referring to specialty products ? Does this take out 90 % of the daily use products ?

Second Question :

Some of you are talking about Soda not leaving an anchor pattern ? What does this mean ? What products produce this ? If you sand with 80 grit before epoxy would this not be an anchor pattern..... I am not even in the ballpark am I....
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Old 08-31-2009, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
soda is not an issue with me as i will not use it because of warranty problems. since i use all spi products and spi specifically states not to use it. i see no advantage in using a media that leaves no anchor pattern. this will only add expense and time to the job. that alone is enough reason for me to not use it. there are many other medias that leave no anchor pattern which i don't use . the whole point of blasting is to get the metal ready for resurfacing by removing the finish and leaving an anchor pattern. i bring a car from the blast room to the wash bay then straight to the paint booth. i use no solvents of any kind before epoxy.

stan, all i can suggest is to get it clean and sand with 80 grit on a da. keeping in mind any area not sanded will have a potential for adhesion failure.

i will be interested in the reply you get from ppg jon. we'll see if it is the same response i got. so far i have heard from 5 .
So you don't blow out every crevice of the car and vacuum and blow more and vacuum more? I spend at least an hour or so vacuuming and blowing out a car after sand blasting. I spend at least and hour or so washing then sanding the car after sodablasting. Where is this big time disadvantage that you speak of? Also, you don't use any type of surface cleaner / degreaser (which are solvent based) to clean the metal of ANY sort of contaminant from moving from the blaster to the paint booth?

Point is, my prep time between sodablasting and sandblasting are about the same. More times and not sodablasting is quicker than sandblasting, in terms of actual blasting time. Soda has it's place in this business. No way would I use an abrasive media on that 1965 Rolls-Royce with aluminum hand made panels.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2009, 07:39 PM
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i use soap and water to clean up with right after blasting. rinsing dose a much better job of getting the media out than blowing. it is then ready to epoxy. no sanding. and no i do not use solvent based cleaner.
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Old 08-31-2009, 08:22 PM
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I have been told by industry professionals who do paint soda blasted vehicles, that those disclaimers are because of all the liability claims received because of faulty residue removal before painting. Spi does not want the liability related to soda blasting. They can't insure that all customers properly remove this residue before taking the vehicle to the paint shop. Regular paint prep will not remove all the residue. Resulting in poor adhesion, and paint failure. Spi is the first person the painter will call----right. I have 2 soda blasted vehicles that were painted by the same shop. Absolutely no problems. I washed the vehicles myself with hold tight 102 before painting. After 3 years the paint is still awesome.
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Old 08-31-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by shine
i use soap and water to clean up with right after blasting. rinsing dose a much better job of getting the media out than blowing. it is then ready to epoxy. no sanding. and no i do not use solvent based cleaner.
Interesting.....so after blasting (excluding soda) I can just hose the bare open metal down with water without any flash rust occurring or anything of that nature????
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Old 09-01-2009, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffrey12
I have been told by industry professionals who do paint soda blasted vehicles, that those disclaimers are because of all the liability claims received because of faulty residue removal before painting. Spi does not want the liability related to soda blasting. They can't insure that all customers properly remove this residue before taking the vehicle to the paint shop. Regular paint prep will not remove all the residue. Resulting in poor adhesion, and paint failure. Spi is the first person the painter will call----right. I have 2 soda blasted vehicles that were painted by the same shop. Absolutely no problems. I washed the vehicles myself with hold tight 102 before painting. After 3 years the paint is still awesome.
This is a direct quote of my post #5 from this thread. Not sure why you reposted my words. Is there something you question about MY statement? If there is fire away.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2009, 11:56 AM
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Thanks Barry -- contacted BASF.

Heard back from Kirker. They also discourage the use of soda, while specifically recommending alternatives such as walnut shells, corn cobs, and polyester bead. Their official response is reprinted in the wiki article, with permission, here: Kirker's position on soda blasting as a prep step.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2009, 03:10 PM
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Heard back from BASF. Still waiting on reprint rights so I can put their exact text in the wiki, but they've enunciated that they don't have an official position on soda blasting, while adding that all residue needs to be removed from the substrate.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2009, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by shine
i use soap and water to clean up with right after blasting. rinsing dose a much better job of getting the media out than blowing. it is then ready to epoxy. no sanding. and no i do not use solvent based cleaner.
I like your approach.

I acid etch before priming with good success.

Any thoughts about using vs. not using an acid etch before priming?
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:31 PM
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it's all one song..................
just depends on who's playing it. i have eliminated all possibilities of any kind of reaction starting with epoxy. no chance , nada, zip , aint gonna happen.. there is nothing but soap and water on the car before i epoxy. there are chemical reactions that happen when you deal with any acid of any kind. big freakin co2 bubbles are the worst. all i'll tell ya is how ever you do it you damn well do it right. an old cherokee painter once told me " what there when start.......be there when done " jmho
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