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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2002, 11:09 AM
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[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: johnsongrass1 ]</p>

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2002, 02:40 PM
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I agree with you, but dimpling does help increase velocity, thats why its done on the long side of the runner. I'll have to find the artical that was done by Automotive Weekly I belive they done the study.Thanks for the input.On the 427 Vette motor they put a 1/4" square type screen at the top of the carb for more turblance to stop the mixture from seperating into droplets.
George

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: 1BAD80 ]

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: 1BAD80 ]</p>
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2002, 03:59 PM
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Hey y'all, listen to 4-Jaw. He speaks with straight tongue. This crap has been around since cars were invented and, contrary to the popular conspiracy legends, if it worked , it would be in every car made. there are very badic physics principles that govern how engines work and these things don't address those principles, thus they don't work. They are very good at achieving their main purpose - making a profit for the people who market them. That's it.
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Old 10-26-2002, 04:20 PM
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Next time you have a chance to look in the rear pages of a 40's or 50's Mechanix Illustrated or Popular Mechanics, right next to the ad for the "King" Roadster and just under the kit to convert your Terraplane into a real flyer you will find an illustrated advertisement for the exact same devices you are discussing here.

Didn't work then.

Don't work now.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2002, 08:05 AM
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Was that the one that had something like fan blades in center of the plate and moved with the air flow? If so that idea didn't work. The air foil is a different technology and does work. I havent looked into the plate to much, it has a slot down the side.
This would help the vapor from becoming droplets in turn giving better performance. They both create a vortex which is a good thing.
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Old 10-27-2002, 03:58 PM
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1bad80, Hear what ya saying, and those screens are to re-atomize fuel droplets can can occur in slow moving mixtures. Not trying to argue or anything. Just thought you may have been confused.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2002, 04:42 PM
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Gee thats what I thought I said, quote:
On the 427 Vette motor they put a 1/4" square type screen at the top of the carb for more turblance to stop the mixture from seperating into droplets.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2002, 08:59 AM
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So?????????/ Is the Helix Power Tower worth the 100 some odd bucks? I can get one for an 88 Mustang but I need to find out if the H.O. and the non-H.O. E.F.I. is the same, like different sized throtlebody and stuff like that. ANyone know?
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Old 10-29-2002, 10:21 AM
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The screen placed above the carb intake on the big vette was not to create turbulence. It was used to straighten the air flow slightly so that the air TURBULENCE going across the top of the carb would not affect the air bleeds and vent tubes, thus changing the AFR. The air filter had little room above the air horn in these applications. At high air speeds turbulence was created as the air went from a larger area (airfilter) up the crown of the lower lid to the air horn. As it entered the airhorn it would tumble and turbulate. This accounted for uncontrollable AFR. With these engines the air direction was vital to operation as the carbs were stagger jetted. I saw this many times on my dyno. Guys would wonder why the engine would go flat after removing what they thought was a restriction. It did make a small amount off difference if it (screen) was removed and the airfilter was left off and the hood left open or removed.

In wet runner turbocharging, screens are used at the inlet to the manifold to straighten air flow so that it can turn corners properly without incurring too much fuel separation at higher air speeds.

When it comes to these VORTEX generators, where are most installed? Before the throttle blades. Their theory does not hold when a throttle blade is introduced into the air flow. Once that so called turbulent air hits a throttle blade all bets are off.

The theory behind the POWER TOWER is not the grooving around the outside of the spacer, it is the spacer itself. It STRAIGHTENS the air after it leaves the throttle balde and before it makes the turn into the manifold runners. The grooving has little affect on the air flow because it is such a small portion of the total airflow. Look at a fast running river. Along the shore you will se what happens. There is a boundary layer close to the shore that flows very slowly. The really fast moving stuff is at the center. Same applies to air flow in the intake.

Aircraft designers spend millions getting air to stay in laminar flow. Turbulence and vortexes cut and limit airspeed. Same applies to boats.

To run a comparison to the test they use for the Tornado, take those 2 bottles and afix 1 or 2 straws in the neck of the one that has the water in it. Place the straw 1/4" from the bottom and about 1" out of the neck. Tape both bottles together at the mouth to eliminate any air getting in there. Now turn the bottles upside down and watch how fast the water flows from the upper bottle to the bottom. It flows faster than it does in the commercial. It has LAMINAR FLOW. This flow is faster even though a restriction has been placed in the flow path.

Sorry these things plain don't work and rely on the cullability of the general public. None have been thoroughly tested. The ad for the Tornado is bogus because if you look at the dyno speedometer that horsepower gain is at a higher road speed. They flip the camera away from it real fast so you don't see it clearly. None of them list the testing facilities that supposedly ran the tests. Anyone can post a dyno chart on the web and one has no way of knowing where or what it came from.

Save your money and use it to keep your engine running properly. All to many people buy these things thinking they will "FIX" a poor running engine.
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Old 10-29-2002, 10:32 AM
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Johnsongrass1 said it all. Any upgrade in oil is a plus of course but these bolt on gizmos, I don't know why people would waste the money. I used to like the old days with the good old 350 4barrel chevys. Wanna go fast just through the air breather in the trunk. Wasn't good for the motor but sounded nice and went like hell. Anyway, great question and great responses.
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Old 10-29-2002, 02:07 PM
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So forget the expensive crap and just try to find a spacer for my throtlebody or if I can't find one just get a machine shop to make one? And it can help my power? The stock blots on the manifold are long enough to where I can get a 3/4-1 inch spacer...Hmmmmmmm? Maybe I can get longer bols? I don't know I'd have to see if I can get different bolts, well damn! I should just buy an upgraded intake <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2002, 03:15 PM
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If you can't find longer bolts go to a hardware shop and get some threaded rod and cut it to the length that you need, use a file and just round off the top slightly for easy starting into the manifold, and use a self locking nut w/washer.
As for the rest of the inputs:
I think alot of us are taking thing's wrong.
Well I admit I stated how the screens worked was wrong,but it done the job for fuel separation.
At least I was right on half of it.It's been to long to remember all the tech stuff from years ago, I couldnt find it on the net. I'm just trying to help in 5.0Towncar's question and tell about some of the old ways and new ways to help the guy out.
It seams on most of the topics are turning into pissing match's instead of helping a fellow gearhead out on his question. Did you happen to do a dyno test on the Tornado,Spiral-max, and the Helix power tower? Just wondering if there was any good data on the stuff instead of the vendors.


[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: 1BAD80 ]</p>
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2002, 05:25 PM
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Ditto that 1bad80, somtimes engines can surprise you with their fluid and gas thermal dynamics. I sorta agree with 4-jaw that I'd try anything once myself. Don't think I'd spend $100 bucks on anything with out serious researching it. I was also slightly wrong about the screens. Apparently, according to a friend of mine who has a degree in fluid dynamics, they have the potential to do both when placed in certian places Within moving gases (moving air). So as the theory goes, they will indeed straighten air passing through as well as give the large drops of fuel somthing to hit and break apart without being a signifigent restriction.
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Old 10-30-2002, 12:51 AM
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I don't know how or if those gizmos work, but I know that Slick-50 oil treatment to reduce wear definately works, and very well. I've put it in many vehicles over the years starting with an old vette in 89, got 5mpg more & turned the idle down many times because of less friction. In a 1981 Jimmy 4x4 with 350 4bbl I got 21.9 mpg highway consistantly for 4 yrs, then sold it. The buyer called me back a few weeks later blown away by the power & gas mileage.
I tried Duralube only once, on my 69 cougar rag, within a week the timingchain jumped. Before that point I noticed sum improvement but nothing like the Slick-50. BTW, that jimmy always leeaked alot of oil, but because of the Slick50 it never seized even once when I found out I only had about a qt left in it , hadda use 3.5 to top it up. Another time I visited my bro up north, didn't have enough antifreeze for their winter, and my hoses froze solid, but it had spun over like a top with no block-heater at -35* F , anyway the temperature guage wrapped all the way around until the hoses thawed out and it went back to normal, didn't seize, drove it for another yr after that with no probs. Unbelievable stuff! It really works and works well when installed properly.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2002, 06:05 AM
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mmetalman; In contrast to most other gizmos mentioned in this thread which only feature is to enrich the peddler, Slick-50 addresses the physics of the problem. Journal bearings depend on the physics involved in hydrodynamic and boundary lubrication. The designer starts with Petroff's law, continues to the bearing-characteristic number to see if the lubricating film is stable or unstable, applies the principles discovered in the 1880's in the Beauchamp Tower laboratories, and designs the width, diameter, radial clearance, expected bearing pressure, bearign material, expected temperature rise, etc. The superior physical properties of advanced lubricants like Slick-50 can be shown to provide superior performance of a journal bearing. There is no witchcraft or magic involved, just basic science.

The "Turbolator" type people depend on public ignorance of the physical principles to prey on their gullability.

Rule of thumb you should follow; Never be the first or one of the 'few lucky ones' to try one of these things. If they work, they will become generally accepted and a safe investment. If they don't work, you are a sucker with a lighter wallet. It isn't worth the possible 1% or 2% improvement in performance to throw good money after a hot tip. In this case, unless you can quantify the physics showing better performance, definitely be a follower not a leader.
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