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Old 03-13-2009, 07:10 AM
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Options to wire coil & ignition module?

I own a 47 Ford truck with a 351W engine, carbureted with electronic module, etc. and a Ford tilt-steering column from what I think is a late 70's to early 80's truck. The positive red lead from the coil, the red lead from the electronic module, and the positive lead for the choke were wired together and connected to a black wire coming from a rectangular block attached to the steering column. The engine would start and run fine but the black wire was getting hot when ignition was on. I disconnected each wire individually and found the black wire did not get hot when the coil wire was disconnected. I connected the coil wire to one of two gray hot leads (ignition on) coming from the steering column block. The truck was hard to get to started but finally fired as I released the key from the "start" to "run" position. However, it ran with a "miss". Later, it would not start at all. I believe I've connected the coil lead to a wire that does not provide enough current when key is in "start" position. Any suggestions how to wire the ignition module and coil for truck to run properly? The coil red wire appears to have a ballast resister built-in. Sorry for long post, hope it makes sense, and thanks in advance for replies.

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Old 03-13-2009, 09:46 AM
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The fact that the black wire was getting hot is an indication that it was overloaded which is an excellent way to start a fire! It is VERY dangerous to just start connecting wires here and there looking for something that works so what you need to do is get a wiring diagram of a circuit that uses the components you have and start from there or FAR better than that buy a wiring harness to do it right. Basically you need two ignition wires (even non-points systems use a resister wire) one for the start circuit and one with a resister for run. If you try to use just one wire you will either not have enough voltage in start or too much in run, you should never have more than about 8 to 9 volts on the coil.

Wire it as follows,

This circuit will consist of an unrestricted wire from the ignition switch to the hot side of the coil that will be hot ONLY during start and will NEVER have power on it at any other time! Then you will have a wire that is hot anytime the ignition switch is on (except for accessory) that has a resister in the circuit between the ignition switch and the hot side of the coil, both the unrestricted wire and the restricted wire attach to the same terminal on the coil, this is necessary to compensate for voltage drop over the entire electrical system during start due to the starter motor's heavy draw and has nothing to do with keeping points from burning, which you don't have anyway. It is extremely important that the wire that is hot during the "start" key position is hot ONLY during that time and will drop out of the circuit and be electrically "cold" in the "run" key position.



The choke will NOT be tied into the ignition circuit! The simplest way, but not really the best way, is to just connect the choke wire to a circuit (make SURE it does not overload the circuit it is connected to) that will be hot whenever the key is on, the problem is the choke will start to heat and open as soon as the key is switched on whether the engine has started or not. The best place to connect the choke, which is the way they come from the factory, is to connect it to the alternator and this must be done on the right terminal but Ford alternators have a terminal just for this purpose. Connecting to the alternator will allow the choke to remain closed until the engine is running and then it will get voltage from the alternator only after the engine has started. Whatever you do don't guess at anything because even if you don't burn your truck to the ground it will probably be a never ending source of problems so if you are unsure or just uncomfortable with doing it then try to find someone with the right experience to help you.
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:04 AM
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What type of ELECTRONIC IGN is it? Usually, the module requires full BAT VOLT and the coil (externally resisted) requires approx. 9V. If a HI-PO internally resistored coil, it too will require full BAT VOLT.

The CHOKE power should be sourced from a relay powered by full BAT VOLT source (example- POS side of starter solenoid)and initiated by the old IGN WIRE from the IGN SW. It should be fused to prevent an overload.

Get back as to the system on the truck.
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-THE NEW MEL ENGINE FORUM-

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Old 03-13-2009, 10:55 AM
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Kultulz, Let's not get into this alternator debate again. I will agree that a relay wired from the "BATT" side of the solenoid or the hot post on the battery it's self is better but it is not necessary if the connection is at the alternator, as evidenced by the fact that Ford ran them directly from the terminal on the alternator, relay or not this terminal on the alternator is the proper place to connect the choke or relay control wire. If a relay is used then the ignition wire will work as the control but it should be the non resister circuit and since this is a very light load on the control wire any convenient circuit that is hot when the key is "on" will work just as well and would eliminate any possible interference with the ignition curcuit. Again the problem with wiring it this way, ignition wire or where ever, is that as soon as the key is switched on the choke will start to heat up whether you are ready or not! If it is wired to the alternator the way the factory intended then the choke will not start to open until the engine starts no matter how long the key is on. Ford coils use external resistance in the form of a resister wire or a separate resister, either will work just fine but make SURE both are not used together! Also the mention of fusing the circuits is important because any circuit needs to be fused AT THE POWER SOURCE with a fuse of the appropriate rating for the size of the wire being used, I know that you already know that but fuses are all too often used in the wrong place so I thought it worth mentioning again. The fuse must be rated for the wire size and not the device being powered and a fuse located at the device will NOT protect the wire coming from the power source.

Just yesterday I was installing some switches on a 2000 F-150 and found that the guy had run three different wires for various sound devices (stereo power booster, etc) inside the truck and the fuses were placed inline with the power supply wire about 2" from each device! I tried to explain that we needed to fuse the wires at the battery where he had them connected but he just could not understand why the fuses would not blow if the wires shorted between them and the battery, he left with it still wired that way.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred

Kultulz,
WHAT NOW!?!

Quote:
Let's not get into this alternator debate again. I will agree that a relay wired from the "BATT" side of the solenoid or the hot post on the battery it's self is better but it is not necessary if the connection is at the alternator, as evidenced by the fact that Ford ran them directly from the terminal on the alternator, relay or not this terminal on the alternator is the proper place to connect the choke or relay control wire.
FORD does not directly run an electric choke from the ALT. GM does. FORD did this for a good reason, GM I could care less why they did it.

Look at the FORD coil below. Is it resistored or not? Is a PERTRONIC FLAMETHROWER coil resistored? You need to catch up to today's theory son.

As long as you keep telling others what I consider incorrect information, I will tell them other wise.

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Old 03-13-2009, 04:26 PM
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All, thanks for the replies and really great advice. I fully understand the implications of a fire through faulty wiring; thus the reason for the post. I use an Eldebrock carb with electric choke. Their tech, as well as the manual state to not connect choke to coil wire or the alternator. I talked to the tech and he suggested connecting to same fuse that controls the radio power. As stated earlier, I am using a Ford steering column from the early 80's. It's easy to get a wiring diagram for the "half-moon" connector for turn signals, etc. Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate a wiring diagram for the rectangular connector attached to the column near the floor which includes the power source from the ignition switch. This is the connector that provides the non-ignition 12v power source and the connector for the ignition on 12v power source. I'll appreciate any suggestions as to how to get this diagram. I did make one error in first post regarding the wire I use for the coil connection. It is a red wire coming from the steering column connection that has power when ignition is on. Again, thanks for current replies and hopefully, more to follow. I am considering buying a complete wiring harness or at least a fuse panel from someone like Painless. More to follow. Roy
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Old 03-13-2009, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ


FORD does not directly run an electric choke from the ALT.

That is simply not true and if ever there was a case of trying to argue a black sheep is white this is it, Ford ran directly off the alternator for years and you should know that! On some models the connection was taken at the regulator but even that same connection on the regulator goes to the alternator connection so it is exactly the same as being on the alternator itself, most however are connected directly to the back of the alternator. Look at most any carburetored Ford wiring diagram. Holley recommends the method of connecting to a hot wire in the "on" position because it will supply a full 12 volts which is what their choke coil is set up for, they do that for simplicity, no relay just a simple connection that will work (as we have been saying) BUT it still has the premature opening problem. Far better to use a relay and hot wire from the battery and the alternator terminal for control (or an oil pressure switch for control), this way the full 12 volts go to the choke but not until the engine is running which is the way it is meant to be. From your first post on this subject in that other thread it is quite apparent that you had no idea that any vehicle powered the choke off the alternator and you just as apparently got upset when the mistake was pointed out. There is nothing new about wiring it this way this and it was, and still is, commonly done both from the factory and after as was pointed out by multiple links to others who explained how it is done. Go ahead and roll your eyes if you like but you are dead wrong and I think you know it so what are you trying to prove?




A few examples of Ford connections this time, these were just as easy to find as the others and there are many, many more. To just flat out state that Ford (also GM, Chrysler, Jeep, Toyota, Datsun, etc.) did not do this is simply ridiculous since they did so on literally millions of vehicles for many years.



https://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/ga...e-project.html

http://www.2carpros.com/forum/1989-f...g-vt85926.html

www.justanswer.com/questions/13lh-choke-wire

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Ford-Repa...oke-wiring.htm

http://fordmuscle.com/forums/truck-f...ric-choke.html

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/63...choke-how.html

http://forums.stangnet.com/775886-el...ke-wiring.html

http://www.mustangforums.com/forum/c...ke-wiring.html

http://www.broncozone.com/forums/lof...hp/t14036.html

http://www.broncoii.org/techpages/duraspark/index.html

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...5-gt-4bbl.html

Last edited by oldred; 03-13-2009 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred

That is simply not true and if ever there was a case of trying to argue a black sheep is white this is it, Ford ran directly off the alternator for years and you should know that!
This reminds me of that aggravating case of jungle rot I had years ago...

FORD (during the seventies and early eighties) used the ALT STATOR terminal as an aid to open the choke blade quicker for emmissions in conjunction with the normally used hot air choke.

The STATOR only delivers about 9V as that circuit is used to excite the FIELD and vary ARMATURE output.

The choke will not be fully operational with it's being tied into the S terminal. A choke will not be fully operational tied into the ARMATURE on any application (GM was explained to us by another gentleman) as it will be constantly hot and remain open when one needs a partially cold start or fast idle.

Even HOLLEY says not to do it for GOD's sake.

All devices such as this need to be ran from a circuit bar or separate fuse panel to prevent electrical surges from affecting the ALT or vice-versa.
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:40 PM
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I SEE YOU HOVERING....
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief-e9

As stated earlier, I am using a Ford steering column from the early 80's. It's easy to get a wiring diagram for the "half-moon" connector for turn signals, etc. Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate a wiring diagram for the rectangular connector attached to the column near the floor which includes the power source from the ignition switch. This is the connector that provides the non-ignition 12v power source and the connector for the ignition on 12v power source.

I'll appreciate any suggestions as to how to get this diagram. I did make one error in first post regarding the wire I use for the coil connection. It is a red wire coming from the steering column connection that has power when ignition is on. Again, thanks for current replies and hopefully, more to follow.
You don't need a new wiring harness. You need to find the wiring schematic for both your truck and the truck the tilt column came out of.

Try the AUTOZONE website under REPAIR INFORMATION.

Did you ever discover what IGN SYSTEM you have?

The PINK WIRE you are describing sounds like the resistor wire used for points and later DURASPARK II coils.

Last edited by KULTULZ; 03-14-2009 at 06:34 AM. Reason: Atrocious Spelling
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ
Look at the FORD coil below. Is it resistored or not? Is a PERTRONIC FLAMETHROWER coil resistored? You need to catch up to today's theory son.

In the first place don't call me son!

If you had a clue about that coil in the picture you would know why it does not have a resister on it, IF it is using the factory wiring it most certainly does use that resister circuit and if you look at the wiring diagram you should be able to find where it ties in to the single wire (if it is just a single wire) that connects to the coil. That wire is fed by two different circuits and still works just the same as I explained earlier. Voltage drop may be compensated for by solid state means on some newer ignitions but the principle will remain the same, if the coil's peak operating voltage was 12 volts then it would not get full voltage during start due to system circuit voltage drop from the starter load resulting in a weak spark when cranking the engine. So because of this voltage drop during start the coil has to be designed to deliver a strong spark at the lower voltage (which it is) then the resister circuit is used to prevent it from being over voltage when the starter load is released and circuit voltage rises to normal unloaded values. THAT is why the resister circuit is required, to keep the voltage supplied to the coil at about the same level when the system is unloaded as it is when under starter load. You are the one who needs to catch up on theory since it is becoming quite obvious you have a bit to learn about how an ignition system works!
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ
This reminds me of that aggravating case of jungle rot I had years ago...

FORD (during the seventies and early eighties) used the ALT STATOR terminal as an aid to open the choke blade quicker for emmissions in conjunction with the normally used hot air choke.

The STATOR only delivers about 9V as that circuit is used to excite the FIELD and vary ARMATURE output.

The choke will not be fully operational with it's being tied into the S terminal. A choke will not be fully operational tied into the ARMATURE on any application (GM was explained to us by another gentleman) as it will be constantly hot and remain open when one needs a partially cold start or fast idle.

Even HOLLEY says not to do it for GOD's sake.

All devices such as this need to be ran from a circuit bar or separate fuse panel to prevent electrical surges from affecting the ALT or vice-versa.


You really disappoint me for a long time I thought you knew what you were talking about, ever since that last thread you have changed your story every time you were shown indisputable evidence that you are wrong. At first, in the other thread, you adamantly argued it was dangerous to wire the choke to the alternator even though it was standard factory procedure! YOU DID THAT! Then after it became undeniable that it is commonly done all of a sudden in later posts you were trying to explain how it was done, quick learner you are! Now in this thread you said flat out that Ford never run the choke from the alternator, YOU DID SAY THAT! But NOW you are trying to explain to me why they did it, make up your mind! I am fully aware of the alternator connection voltage but the choke does operate on that voltage supply. As far as connecting to another 12 volt source I have said from the start that it does work and is the simplest way to do it but IMO, and quite apparently the factory's opinion, it is not the best way, if the engine does not start immediately the choke will start to open whether you want it to or not! I tried to be polite to you at first but in an attempt to put yourself in a better light you keep making those snide little remarks to try to make me look ignorant when it is you who keeps changing your story. Your first thread on this subject makes it VERY clear that you had no idea how the factory powered the choke off the alternator but now you claim to be able to tell me all about it, and you try to make me look dumb?

Last edited by oldred; 03-14-2009 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief-e9
I did make one error in first post regarding the wire I use for the coil connection. It is a red wire coming from the steering column connection that has power when ignition is on.Roy

Roy I won't have access to wiring diagrams until later today but it would help a lot if you could provide some more precise dates, such as what 80s column (81, 82, etc), probably not absolutely necessary but it would help. What year is the ignition module and which one? And, very importantly, does that red wire have a color tracer stripe on it, such as green or blue, or is it just a solid red wire? These color tracers are very important since the start circuit uses several red wires that can be identified by the tracer.
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Old 03-14-2009, 06:30 AM
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Red,

I just don't know what else to tell you. You have worn me down to a frazzle.

It will be up to each individual as how to wire an electric choke.

I give up...
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Old 03-14-2009, 07:38 AM
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Good Morning all; I've included a picture (hopefully big enough or can be expanded) that shows the unplugged side of the rectangular harness (two yellow wires provide constant voltage from the battery to the harness) and the pink (no tracer) wire [second from right/next to black] is the wire providing 12v ignition on that I use for the coil and ignition module. The other picture shows right side of column which hopefully will be helpful identifying year of column. The module is a "Big A" heavy duty ignition module with what appears to be a factory plug at the end of the connector wires. The wire colors running left to right are green, red, purple, white, orange and black. Hope this helps. As you can see, the wiring looks terrible and has proven a real challenge to trace. I have them all traced and connected properly except for the coil issue. I do plan to rewire to be neat and orderly. Thanks again to all for your advice and don't give up on me.
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