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  #466 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lizer View Post
I did rewet the paper towels but it only took me so far.

I stripped my ENTIRE mustang using a wirewheel. However, the metal was not rusted and I was just stripping paint, it came out nice and shiny like Randy's picture.

My pitted roof on the other hand....it was sandblasted which did not get down into the pits, and the wirewheel wasn't getting down in those pits well either.
heres something you can try Liz,Brian this is for you too....first off that stiff braded wheel is great for the hevey stuff but a little too stiff to get down into deep pits especially if the speed is to high so you want to use the big cup wheel,its abit softer...
get some play sand or whatever blasting media you have laying around...put about a 1/4 cup on the rusted surface and using Ospho or uncle pats MS pour the solution over the sand making a paste (kinda like a buffing compound but very rough) ,then spread it around with a bondo squeegie evenly,then rewet the whole area and using the red scuff pad simply scrub that paste in good,all the sand will settle down in the bottom of the pits and scub that strubburnd rust out,after you've scrubbed it then rewet it again and use an old DA with a velcro pad and stick a scuff pad to it and run it over that area again then finally,using the softer cup wheel and go over again further grinding the sand into the pits...after all that just use the bondo squeegie to scrape the pasty mixture off and into something rince ithe area with fresh stuff utill all the sand is gone and let it dry....it sounds like a lot of work but its really not......I'm have really good results using uncle Pats MS when I use it the same way I use the Ospho....I've got to work on the wet flannel method some more its just not working that well for me for some reason...The flannel is stayin wet but the rusted surface is drying out.
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  #467 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 06:35 AM
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google away . as i have said over and over it is not the acid but the way it is used.
yes ,then you say this over and over again: (pasted) quote: there is adhesion then there is adhesion. the problem does not show up immediately . usually after the car is finished and sees some uv rays . then a bubble will appear. epoxy will adhere to metal even if not sanded well but it will not last over acid . sooner or later it will rear it's ugly head .
I'm a little confused it sounds like something Clinton would say ...its either one way or the other not both...
For someone who would rather paint over rust than use acid you sure have a lot of advise on how to use something you dont EVER use....
I do agree as I stated in my very first post Page #1 post #1 if its not used properly it will give you trouble....bubbles are one problem that show it wasnt done right....bad adheasion is the other....since I dont get either and use the stuff all the time,what does that tell you?
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:27 AM
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Thank you DBM for the technique of using play sand , great idea. At the moment I'm having some Rust remover/Descaler made up for further evaluation. This is a combination of acids and does require a good water rinse follow by the prep or Ospho. I will also have them address the wetting issue to see if we can improve on that.
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  #469 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 07:32 AM
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pat, back in the 80's i attended a class that was being taught by one of ppg's techs. he normally did not do them but got stuck with it. unlike most that just promoted product he got into the failure side of it pretty heavy.
there were several painters there that had no clue and made every mistake you could . first and foremost was washing steel with lacquer thinner. this alone doomed the job. another was the way they used both dx440 and dx520 . both good products but if abused would destroy the job. the dx440 cleaner had to have a long flash time as it would not evap very fast off metal . the dx520 was a very good metal etch but was a little difficult to get rinsed off. people would rush it and not spend the time rinsing it.
in the old days you could almost get away with it but with todays top coats and primers you cant. they removed the sp from products and this made the prep process even more important. many cases of solvent pop is in reality blistering from the corrosive battery taking place .
like i said i have no problem with your product but i do believe it should be noted that if used under epoxy or polyester it should be well rinsed while wet .
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  #470 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 07:46 AM
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Shine, thank you for your input. I will have them add a notation on our directions about the use of epoxies and about following the paint manufacturers directions on the use of acid preps.It certainly can't hurt.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:58 AM
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Wow, since it looks like we may be done with all the BS, maybe I can explain in short why the confusion.
Not sure why I want to bother after seeing BS like I will do a ph test or half statements like it say it will help adhesion, with out pointing out that every one of PPG tech sheets on their acids say water, water and water.
Zinc rich epoxy in automotive refinish??, No such thing and you can figure it out after reading what I try to say.

First like I said many times, the automotive refinish is a very small market compared to the industrial market and products are different for a reason!!!!!

So when mail order companies buy acid mixes and slap their label on them, the industrial company that makes this product big business is industrial, remember Dead body man saying Ospho telling him, auto refinish would not pay their electric bill a year ago??

Now epoxy or urethane can be made 100’s of ways and this is why with the purchase of ameron seven years ago by PPG, (Ameron made only epoxies and the best in the world.)
I bet PPG has over 30 different epoxies but only one in auto refinish, why? The industrial grade will not work.

Neutralizing: If you are selling to stationary objects, or 3 MPH dozers you do not need to neutralize as a 30-50 % adhesion rate and a ton of zinc is perfect for the job but on a car or truck doing 70 mph if he hit a bug or stone a nice big chip is going to happen.
Zinc is a formulators dream but in automotive there is a most important factor that trumps everything, “co-adhesion this is not a concern or most likely not even measured in industrial, in automotive, if this is wrong you are in deep chit!
Zinc positive is rust and its weak point if too much is used you start to lose adhesion and or co-adhesion depending how it is used, 1percent to much mixed in auto refinish and you can really cause a mess.

I would bet from old knowledge, some of the Ameron epoxies for the oil stations may be in the 50% range, yet automotive epoxies may be 1-10% depending on they type of epoxy resin that is used in the formula.

So bottom line is both sides are right, depending on applications, I posted on a forum a while back about how I get over a 100 calls a year from metal treatment products that fail because they were not neutralized, like they are suppose to be.
The best one was the PPG shop in another post who wanted my opinion if ppg epoxy was bad, thirty minutes of questions, I said sir, you did everything perfect, and I asked you a lot of trick questions and can tell you the LF and K36 were just fine and with what you said as to how you did everything, the car cannot peel like you said.
Then he said what if I used this metal treatment the customer brought me and said use after blasting? I said we could have saved 30 minutes of me interrogating you. Oh that is one of those private label miracle metal prep sold by a mail order company that attacks do-it-yourself market because they don’t know any better.

Bottom, line, follow TECH SHEETS, or call me when the paint has a problem, if you give me the straight scoop on size, location of bubble and where, I can tell you, if you washed the metal with lacquer thinner, or did not neutralize the Ospho, or if you used merratic acid and can tell you if you used hydrochloric, as they all cause a different reaction.
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  #472 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 09:12 AM
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thank you Barry . this should pretty much do it for the apply and dry thing .
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  #473 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shine View Post
pat, back in the 80's...
there were several painters there that had no clue and made every mistake you could . first and foremost was washing steel with lacquer thinner. this alone doomed the job.
I have a question about laquer thinner, Can I use it as part of the cleaning process as long as I use a quality wax and grease remover before applying epoxy? Of course I would allow adequate time for the flash to happen.

Did that make sense?

Thanks Jerry

Last edited by white72gs455; 08-02-2013 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Grammer
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:09 AM
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not only do we not know what is in that thinner today even worse is solvent will " set " anything biodegradable . this means you will have very little chance of cleaning it. first thing is soap and water. this will remove all of it. then a quality cleaning solvent. BUT lacquer thinner is not a cleaning solvent , never has been.
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  #475 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:16 AM
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Maybe I mis-spoke

I probably should not have called it cleaning and referred to part of the paint removal process. I am in no way making any claims or arguing what effects there are for using the thinner, I am just trying to learn.
Thanks For all the help!
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  #476 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:19 AM
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:24 AM
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simple green works good on chassis as does dawn soap. is the chassis what you are working on ?
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  #478 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by white72gs455 View Post
I have a question about laquer thinner, Can I use it as part of the cleaning process as long as I use a quality wax and grease remover before applying epoxy? Of course I would allow adequate time for the flash to happen.

Did that make sense?

Thanks Jerry

YES!! Done all the time.
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  #479 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:31 AM
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Yes and thanks!

Thanks! I was worried all my efforts were in vain!
Yes, that is the frame to my 54 Buick Super. I have sanded or chemically removed what could the started the blasting process in areas I couldn't reach. Front end will be coming off next...

At some point it will get sprayed with SPI Epoxy. (It's back in the garage for now, out of the elements)
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:33 PM
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Thanks! I was worried all my efforts were in vain!
Yes, that is the frame to my 54 Buick Super. I have sanded or chemically removed what could the started the blasting process in areas I couldn't reach. Front end will be coming off next...

At some point it will get sprayed with SPI Epoxy. (It's back in the garage for now, out of the elements)
It is not the preferred way, but when people realize they screwed up, that is how we tell them to correct it.
If you get boarded one day it would not hurt to clean it again with a good wax and grease remover just to be sure we got everything.
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