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  #511 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2013, 12:15 PM
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Mastercoat preps are used with Mastercoat primer, no problems. Our shops prime with mastercoat primer followed by another either epoxy or urethane sandable primer ,see the photo gallery at mastercoatus.com.for more details.Here are some pictures of the Descaler on that rusty roof section.It dissolved the rust in less than a half-hour just by keeping it wet. You can use some of Mike's techniques to speed things along, but be careful wear gloves and eye protection.After you do you de scale it rinse it thoroughly you can even use some baking soda and water to scrub with a scotch bright pad. Dry it Wipe it down with the prep just a thin coat and it won't flash rust. There's a picture of the engine cleaning gun from Taiwan for spraying acids and paint inside the frame rails and hard to reach places.
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  #512 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2013, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine View Post
it makes no difference which of the majors you look at this will be what you find regarding metal prep .ppg , dupont, sikens ,s&w they will all be the same. the tech sheet for ospho, naval jelly or whoever has nothing to do with automotive refinishing . those who are trained professionals know this . it is stressed over and over at training classes and is the #1 problem call the techs get. Barry has tried hard to get this across so many times he has just given up on this site. if you want to do it right follow your paint mfg tech sheet .
I'm not exactly sure what your saying Shine.are you saying Ospho isnt made for cars so dont use it or are you saying follow PPGs tech sheets when using it? Or mabee use a rust remover made by PPG and ther paint manufactures???
I do agree that the number 1 cause for paint failure is improper use of acid I believe that was posted in the very first post of this thread and many times after that and the whole reason for starting the thread in the first place.. Let me just say it like this: If you want to remove rust and DONT want the protective coating that will stop surface rust then by all means wash it off with water..
Of coarse doing it this way,the surface will start rusting imediately before the water evaporates ,,,(mabe you can explain what to do about that with all your training and all).....We're all ears.....

But if you DONT want surface rust leave it on to dry and take as much time with the metal work as you need too.
I believe when most people have that have troubleit starts by not getting it wiped off well enough and leaving to much excess to dry ,a good sanding before priming will get that off and a couple of wipe downs with wax & grease remover takes care of the rest then theres no adheasion problems....once the epoxy has cured if you want to know how well its stuck to the metal rty to scrape it off with a razor scraper before going any further...You can use duct tape or gorilla duct tape to check the adheasion but the razor scraper works best....so always check your adheasion before going any further with your project....
That said. I've also stated That I've never used any other rust remover....untill recently, and when I used it I followed the directions from that manufacture not PPG's directions ,am I doing something wrong by following the directions of the manufacture that actually makes the products???? with all your training you have me at a disadvantage I'll admit that,the only training I have is an old guy showing me how to do it 35 yrs ago and 35 yr experiance doing it this way without any problems....I love the stuff....even more so since starting this thread ,even I was a little worried it wasnt up to par with all you've said, until actually doing all the tests everyone asked me to try and seeing it pass all of them with flying colors... Now,more than ever I have complete confidence in using Ospho...and I have you and Barry (mostly) to thank for that....So I thank both of you for restoring my confidence in this great product and keep up the good work all the DIY's really need to know what can go wrong and why....
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  #513 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Pats55 View Post
Hey Mike I did a couple of experiments on the bench with that rusty roof section, it looks a lot like Brian's roof. It took 22 min. to get the white metal. I put it next where I'd use to prep but the prep only turned it black I'll have pictures tomorrow .While I was killing time I did manage to blow up a can of Silver primer in my face trying to get the lid off. I have silver specks all over my face. I am now part of the glitterati.
sounds good Pat. at least it wasnt a whole gallon you spilled like I did...That stripper glitter should wear off in a couple weeks....
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  #514 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2013, 06:35 AM
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I will have to agree with you on the excess buildup of zinc being the problem. Once you get the hang of it. It's not really a problem. I spent years in a booth selling metal prep and rust remover and the complaints were few and far between.you just can't stand in his same place year after year selling crap. I'll have pictures later on this morning on descaling heavy rust that would be found inside the frame rails. This situation of frames rusting from the inside out has always been a major concern for me, so I got a couple tricks to share.
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  #515 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2013, 10:19 AM
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Prepping inside frame rails

Here's the results of keeping the descaler wet for 8 hours. It cleaned it up pretty nice . I started at 930 last night and at six this morning it was rust free. Ran a hose on it for at least a full minute then I dried it offI followed up with wiping it down with metal prep and letting that dry thoroughly.You can spray the Descaler you can saturate rags and stuffed them inside with brazing rod. You can tie string around the rags and pull him through the chassis. The main idea if it's wet, it's working. Some chassis have enough holes that you can see inside and monitor your progress,. Now that you've got the rust cleaned up pretty well what do we use to prevent its return?.I would suggest since you can't see the inside and don't know if you have rust there remaining I would use a surface tolerant coating something in the order of a moisture cured silver, a zinc rich epoxy , calcium sulfonate or whatever coating you think will work. Click image for larger version

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  #516 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 05:58 AM
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How about this Barry K.

I've got a question for Barry K...
I've been giving a lot of thought to your rinsing the Ospho off and may have come up with a compromise ...Theres no doubt you can remove rust using Ospho theres also no doubt that it will prevent surface rust....as long as its not rinsed off....
So heres what I've come up with .......
after using ospho anddoing all the metal work (welding patches etc...) and your ready to prime, rewet everything with ospho and rinse it.that would remove any coating and leave bare metal again but only do one or two panels at a time or as much as you think you can prime that day....after the rinsing, dry and sand then wax & grease remover....
Would you feel safe doing it like that ????....
I believe this way we can get all the benifets of using Ospho and the safty net of rinsing it off completely....Whada ya think ????? make sence???
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  #517 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
I've got a question for Barry K...
I've been giving a lot of thought to your rinsing the Ospho off and may have come up with a compromise ...Theres no doubt you can remove rust using Ospho theres also no doubt that it will prevent surface rust....as long as its not rinsed off....
So heres what I've come up with .......
after using ospho anddoing all the metal work (welding patches etc...) and your ready to prime, rewet everything with ospho and rinse it.that would remove any coating and leave bare metal again but only do one or two panels at a time or as much as you think you can prime that day....after the rinsing, dry and sand then wax & grease remover....
Would you feel safe doing it like that ????....
I believe this way we can get all the benifets of using Ospho and the safty net of rinsing it off completely....Whada ya think ????? make sence???
A few notes;
First acid does neutralize itself but no one can say when, one day or I have seen it protect coatings for up to 12 months before it would show surface rust, which says it is neutralizing or wearing down.
Second, if doing a few panels at a time leave it on, it can be neutralized 6 months later when you are ready to epoxy, by re-wetting itself with the acid and wiping off with a wet rag.

As i said many times, if a panel will flash rust, that tells you the panel is free of contaminants and film and NOW epoxy or body filler will adhere with out a problem.
Third:
What about filler applied over an acid film, I get a lot of calls and the question is, I applied filler, dried great and sanded go but broke through to metal and it gummy. Acid film is the answer and no other cause.
Forth:
Does the exact same thing to an epoxy and can to a DTM.

A perfect test for you as at 70 degrees we know what an epoxy will do as far as adhesion.

24 hours with a handled razor scraper, you should be able to scrap off metal for 2-6 inches.
48 hours, 1/2 inch to 2 ' will scrap off.
72 hours: nick and maybe see a spot of metal.
96 hours: Gouge the epoxy only.
Just chemical facts and only two reasons the above will cause the epoxy not to follow this general rule of thumb, sprayed when to cold or acid film.
With acid film you can scrap off anytime you want as you will only have 30-50% adhesion same as to cold.

No hair off my a## how anyone decides to do it, as I will be happy to tell them how to fix when the paint falls off.

Last edited by BarryK; 08-09-2013 at 07:37 AM.
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  #518 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 07:44 AM
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Ok, so now we're getting somewhere.
let me just add that you should NEVER put bondo over ANYTHING youve treated with Ospho. always prime first. I've actually blown bondo off with a blower blowing off the dust from sanding the same thing happens when you apply bondo over etch primer it may look like its stuck well but it isnt...I've learned this the hard way many years ago....lucky for me it was only a hood and not a whole car...
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  #519 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 07:51 AM
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Mike, I just realized that my roof is coated with ospho and it's all clamped up ready to weld! Are there any issues with contaminating the weld?

Brian
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
Ok, so now we're getting somewhere.
let me just add that you should NEVER put bondo over ANYTHING youve treated with Ospho. always prime first. I've actually blown bondo off with a blower blowing off the dust from sanding the same thing happens when you apply bondo over etch primer it may look like its stuck well but it isnt...I've learned this the hard way many years ago....
Mike,
I really don't want involved in this, nothing personal but when I read chit about zinc rich epoxy in automotive, hydrochloric acid on cars, air tight urethane primers, and roll on lacquers, along with aerosol paints, it just seems like a waste of time and all this BS comes from people that don't paint and as one person said writing an organism.
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  #521 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 08:12 AM
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see post #23
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  #522 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 08:13 AM
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I dont take things personal Barry ,you should know that by now,I wasnt asking how you liked my new haircut.although If it looked funny I would hope and expect you to say so... I wanted your honest opinion and you gave it thats all..I think weve finally come up with a proceedure that'll work for everybody, we wouldnt have gotten here without you...I never would have thought of rewetting and rinsing months down the road if you hadnt brought the rinsing up in the first place....I wouldnt know about all that other stuff ,I've never used any of it.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:19 AM
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I dont take things personal Barry ,you should know that by now,I wasnt asking how you liked my new haircut.although If it looked funny I would hope and expect you to say so... I wanted your honest opinion and you gave it thats all..I think weve finally come up with a proceedure that'll work for everybody, we wouldnt have gotten here without you...I never would have thought of rewetting and rinsing months down the road if you hadnt brought the rinsing up in the first place....I wouldnt know about all that other stuff ,I've never used any of it.
Alright then, Mike your so ugly only a mother could love you!
You carry to many guns for me to say that in person. LOL
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  #524 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 08:19 AM
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see post #23
post# 23 reapply and rinse well.
Your absolutely right Shine I must have missed that post.
So we're all in agreement now???? 500 posts later???? LOL
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  #525 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 08:24 AM
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Alright then, Mike your so ugly only a mother could love you!
You carry to many guns for me to say that in person. LOL
Now your dead wrong ....my mother never loved me she even drove off with me sitting in a car seat on the roof of her car but some old guy stopped her thinking she just forgot me up there like a cup of coffee...I was having a blast up there and from then on every time we went somewhere they'd have to get me off the roof first it wasnt always easy if there was a roof rack I could get my hands on...

Last edited by deadbodyman; 08-09-2013 at 08:31 AM.
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