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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2010, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Let me say something here, first Mike (dead body man) and I are friends, we have had lunch together and went two hours and never talked about this subject, smart, as we were both packin. LOL
My only disagreement with mike, I understand the tech says its a primer and is self neutralizing, sorry but bull.
Mike believes, the tech sheet, written
All true...and If I call SPI to ask a stupid question we always end up talking for an hour or two... Barrys products and service are enough for me to be a devoted customer but he has the absolute best guy delivering the stuff to me...He'll even deliver a quart most time s I'll go meet Eddie because I dont want him to lose time on my petty little things I run out of....I dont deal with anyone else unless I have too...

That said , I never read a teck sheet until I joined HR,I just used it like I was taught ...It does claim to be a paintable surface BUT ALWAYS USE AN EPOXY PRIMER.
The self neutralizing IS true though...I never did anything but sand or scuff after it dried...
BTW ,by now we should know we may never agree on this subject but at least we can agree to disagree and still be civil about it....Were to much alike and hard headed to ever change each others opinions ..One thing with us is we dont sugar coat anything we say exactly whats on our mind ..We could talk about politics all day and not get into an argument but when it comes to this stuff ....Forget about it....I aint bringin it up ...except here ...where I'm safe...
I was sure glad to see you didnt have anyone with you that day....
Seriously Bear ...If you saw how I use it ,I think you would change your mind... I'll bet you get a lot of calls about wax & grease remover problems too..Am I right????
We forget :Everythings easy when you've done it all your life...Things we dont even think about give others fits....I run into this every day...

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2010, 08:36 AM
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Just a note of interest:

I just read a report from Robert McCartney out of Maryland who personally has experienced adhesion problems using House of Color epoxy over Oshpo. He's one of the most trusted pros who is a member of the Tri-Five anc ChevyTalk forums (MP&C).
http://www.trifive.com/forums/showth...894#post463894

Also, from House of Color's tech sheet:

NOTE: PLEASE REFER TO SANDING GRIT RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BARE METAL AND OLD FINISH SANDING.
NOTE: DO NOT USE ANY ACID BASE PRODUCTS SUCH AS SELF ETCHING PRIMER, ETC. UNDER THE KP2CF PRIMER. THIS WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY CAUSE AN ADHESION PROBLEM.
NOTE: IF YOU FIND IT NECESSARY TO USE A METAL CONDITIONER TO REMOVE RUST, ETC., BE SURE TO THOROUGHLY CLEAN AND NEUTRALIZE THE TREATED AREA FOLLOWING THE CONDITIONER MANUFACTURERS RECOMMENDATIONS, USING OUR KC20 POST SANDING CLEANER WITH A MAROON SCUFF PAD TO INSURE ALL ACID RESIDUE HAS BEEN REMOVED BEFORE PRIMING. IF NOT, THIS WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY CAUSE AN ADHESION PROBLEM.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2010, 10:24 AM
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Roger,
Skip foose is also famous and I see him screwing up a lot.....
I've seen two guys on tv suggest putting tranny fluid on your car to protect the bare metal also...
My point is follow my instrutions on its application... it works under any primer I dont care whos name is on it ....If someone had a problem ,they did something wrong ...Pros screw up on a daily basis just ask one if they ever forgot to add hardner to primer or paint and we use mix the stuff every day..
After all if you want to know how something works wouldnt you want to ask someone that uses it without any problems.
If you wanted to build a guided missle who you going to ask ? Hamas or the americans..
For 15.00 its a cheap way to find out for yourself, try it my way and let us know right here....
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2010, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Roger,Skip foose is also famous and I see him screwing up a lot.....I've seen two guys on tv suggest putting tranny fluid on your car to protect the bare metal also...My point is follow my instrutions on its application... it works under any primer I dont care whos name is on it ....If someone had a problem ,they did something wrong ...Pros screw up on a daily basis just ask one if they ever forgot to add hardner to primer or paint and we use mix the stuff every day..After all if you want to know how something works wouldnt you want to ask someone that uses it without any problems. If you wanted to build a guided missle who you going to ask ? Hamas or the americans..For 15.00 its a cheap way to find out for yourself, try it my way and let us know right here....
I posted that just as a note and you attacked it by saying he screwed up and I can't defend it since I am not him. However, I don't believe he would have said that if he had not used the product as directed. But, I believe what you say too. However, I don't understand why you are not having problems. But, I do believe you. And, I believe if you believe it, you should do what you think is right. That said, I still wouldn't recommend to my friends for them to take their car to your shop.

No, I'm not going to try it. It's a fact that epoxy doesn't cure the way it's designed to in the presence of an acid residue (and I believe Ospho leaves an acid residue if not completely removed). I have absolutely no incentive to try it anyway. Epoxy over properly prepared metal provides the best corrosion and moisture barrier that there is. Why would I want to do anything different than that? This works for a zillion people out there. Just because one professional out there goes against manufacturer's recommendations, has never had a problem and swears by it just doesn't do it for me. There's lots of pros on this site and you're the only one I know of who uses Ospho in the manner that you use it.

You have found something that works for you. That's great. And, you've shared that here. Fine again. But it's another thing to keep pushing your position over and over again here to strongly influence others to use a practice that is not a recommended or generally accepted one. Especially since this site gets a lot of novice people that just stop by occasionally for advice and may leave thinking that your way is the accepted way. I think that is wrong.

Last edited by roger1; 08-27-2010 at 11:27 AM.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2010, 02:27 PM
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The HOK tech sheet statement is documented in the Phosphoric acid as metal pretreatment article. There is a quote from shine in there as well, that I think properly summarizes the Ospho opposition viewpoint. As usual, anyone is welcome to update/adjust the article.
----


deadbodyman -- while I agree that "famous" often holds little weight around here, tech sheets most certainly do.

I think that roger1's last paragraph above is a fair, reasonable, and accurate statement. The red carpet has been rolled out for you to document a controversial practice whose use runs against the recommendations of the bulk of the professionals on this forum (among whose ranks I will happily include you as well).

There are multiple threads on this topic, with multiple consecutive posts by you. There is a wiki article I made for you, that shows up on the first page in Google when searching for "Ospho". There are photos. There are videos. Your perspective on the use of Ospho will be received by many people, for years to come. I think it's a great example of how we give equal voice to opposing viewpoints.

Nevertheless, while I think it's important to give a voice to controversial viewpoints, I don't think it's acceptable to give that voice a loudspeaker and a podium. Your position is being pushed too aggressively, and in a manner that does not adequately share the stage with the opposing viewpoint. Please reconsider your communication strategy.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2010, 07:01 PM
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The MSDS for Ospho does not mention any dichromate compounds, but their literature does, so it's not clear to me if it actually contains dichromate. But for the curious, here is a link to the sodium dichromate wiki page, as well as a link to the hexavalent chromium page (sodium dichromate is a member of the hexavalent chrome family). It's sobering reading.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2010, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtech
The MSDS for Ospho does not mention any dichromate compounds, but their literature does, so it's not clear to me if it actually contains dichromate. But for the curious, here is a link to the sodium dichromate wiki page, as well as a link to the hexavalent chromium page (sodium dichromate is a member of the hexavalent chrome family). It's sobering reading.
20 + years ago I routinely worked in conversion coat process tanks and literally would be soaked to the skin with wash product containing hexavalent chromium. Wasn't until years later did I learn of the health risks of the compound.
Every time I hear or see the name I think of Silkwood.

If ospho is self neutralizing, I wonder why the MSDS says to use soda ash to neutralize in case of a spill?
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2010, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fool
20 + years ago I routinely worked in conversion coat process tanks and literally would be soaked to the skin with wash product containing hexavalent chromium. Wasn't until years later did I learn of the health risks of the compound.
Every time I hear or see the name I think of Silkwood.

If ospho is self neutralizing, I wonder why the MSDS says to use soda ash to neutralize in case of a spill?
Luckily for you, skin absorption of Cr(VI) compounds is apparently minimal, but inhalation is a severe hazard, as lungs are particularly vulnerable.

This could be a serious problem for anyone dry-sanding a residue containing sodium dichromate. I question whether it is even present in Ospho anymore, but until we can confirm its presence or absence, people should be warned against dry sanding the dry Ospho film.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2010, 05:23 AM
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a simple phone call to the tech line is all that is needed . call your paint mfg for info. DO NOT go by any info here. always consider the source and look for proof of claims made on the internet . the only opinion that counts is the mfg that will void your warranty . spi has told you time and time again not to use it unless completely neutralized and is the same answer you'll get from any of them. and drying overnight is not neutralizing anything.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2010, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtech
The MSDS for Ospho does not mention any dichromate compounds, but their literature does, so it's not clear to me if it actually contains dichromate. But for the curious, here is a link to the sodium dichromate wiki page, as well as a link to the hexavalent chromium page (sodium dichromate is a member of the hexavalent chrome family). It's sobering reading.
Its always good to knowthe risks of using automotive paint products...We've lost many old timers before their time...Wear proper protection when using all paint related products..

I have a bottle in front of me and right at the top it dosent list the ingredients but it does say: A balanced formula of,Phosphoric,bichromate,wetting agents,and extenders...What I dont understand is why a company would send someone out to use a hazardous material without proper protection ...sounds like a good case for a lawsuit....
Even the guy at the body shop that taught me how to use it told me to wear gloves and a mask when applying it and you always wear a mask when sanding even sanding wood can be dangerous Any kind of dust is bad for your lungs....and your skin will suck up any type of solvent or even handling lead is bad without gloves...Everything in this business is dangorous so read the precautions...
I dont care what paint manufacturer you call but if you tell them you used any other kind of product but their's they'll say we wont guarantee it ....Any one thats been in this business know thats all BS andwe all mix and match whatever product we like best for that particular job .... For instance epoxy primer is epoxy primer but I like SPI best so thats what I use. when it comes to paint were very particular about our favorite brands but if you use SPI epoxy under dupont and have a problem (I never did ) Dupont will blame it on the SPI epoxy and might even call it crap.dosent anyone find it funny that HOK says using any metal prep but theirs will give you trouble? no wonder their underpreforming materials are so expensive...they think we're all chumps...
The whole purpose of this thread was to explain how I use Ospho successfully because until I talked to SPI I didnt know anyone that had trouble with it .I never had it bubble up ,or had any type of adhesion problems and if anyone ever does , contact me and I'll help them achieve the same success as I do...To those that still argue about how it doesn't work I say show me, because I KNOW it works and works well and I showed it ...That should end the debate right there ..... Consider who is saying it wont work and their agenda or do they work with rusty cars for a living ....Sure there are other ways to strip paint and fix rust but not for me. Blasting and priming all in one day is a lot work even for a pro.if it can be done at all ,I wont do it and no one would blast a fender,prime it then blast another fender and prime that what a mess that would make. NOT only that we should all know by now how much damage a sand blaster can do to sheetmetal in the hands of a newbie ...blasting should be done by a pro and thats expensive and still no garuntee it wont be warped ...
So to anyone that says it wont work like I say it does ,I say: show (us) the proof ....I've already proved my side,so put up or shut up ,this is getting old...comments like consider the source go both ways and take much less time than I've put into this subject.... Or this one post for that matter...
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2010, 08:28 AM
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I believe where at least some of the problem arises, is how the ospho is supposed to "self neutralize", w/o going back and neutralizing it w/at least a water rinse along w/scuffing it w/something.

I would think that trusting that ospho will completely neutralize- by just allowing it to dry overnight- would be an invitation to problems w/acid residue.

I'd be curious to see how litmus paper would react by applying it to a re-wetted section of overnight-dried ospho-treated metal, or dipping it into the rinse water after an ospho treatment.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2010, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I believe where at least some of the problem arises, is how the ospho is supposed to "self neutralize", w/o going back and neutralizing it w/at least a water rinse along w/scuffing it w/something.

I would think that trusting that ospho will completely neutralize- by just allowing it to dry overnight- would be an invitation to problems w/acid residue.

I'd be curious to see how litmus paper would react by dipping it into the rinse water after an ospho treatment.
================================================== ==

Se this is the whole issue here that I don't want to be involved with at all.

Like I told mike two years ago, YES the way he uses it and the part setting for 6 months it will self neutralize enough that a DA and wax and grease remover will work under an automotive product.
It neutralise's with deteriorating age, not in 24 hours.

Flash rust is the painters best friend, IF using epoxy.

By the way where or what happened to the expert that was going to come on here and explain how this film will not affect an amines, polyol or polyester the three common things used in the auto refinish business.??????

Remember and here is why he is not here, this market does not pay their light bill, it is industrial that supports them, oil based, latex's, acid etches, etc.
Those products could care less about an acid film.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2010, 09:04 AM
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Everybody screws up

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Roger,
Skip foose is also famous and I see him screwing up a lot.....
I've seen two guys on tv suggest putting tranny fluid on your car to protect the bare metal also...
My point is follow my instrutions on its application... it works under any primer I dont care whos name is on it ....If someone had a problem ,they did something wrong ...Pros screw up on a daily basis just ask one if they ever forgot to add hardner to primer or paint and we use mix the stuff every day..
After all if you want to know how something works wouldnt you want to ask someone that uses it without any problems.
If you wanted to build a guided missle who you going to ask ? Hamas or the americans..
For 15.00 its a cheap way to find out for yourself, try it my way and let us know right here....
When I reread this I sill dont understand how you think I attacted you or the pro whos opinion you respect so much..It was not my intent...Everybody screws up.I'm no writer and sometimes I'm misunderstood.Nor was it ever my intent to get on a soap box or try my hand at grandstanding ... I'm simply tring to explain how to use it without problems..The directions on the bottle are a little vague and I use it a little differntly (example :some guys applied it with a rag ,thats a waste of time)whether you try it or not ,its not my concern... but many will ,whether I wrote this thread or not and have trouble ,this is for those that do try it...
I could'nt find that post in that thread so I dont know what he said about it or if it was the first time he used Ospho... Phosphoric acid is the main ingredient in Ospho, navel jelly and etch primer... Ospho out preforms all of them...but I've never used straight Phosphoric acid and I dont use any other rust treatments (they just havent worked for me)...all my comments are strickly concerning Ospho...
I did however read a lot of posts by a lot of pros stating that laying down epoxy then doing body work is the wrong approch and will create adhesion problems...so I say they're wrong about that too...I also saw one of our most respected members posts (under another name) that confirm this so I feel better about that...I thought I might have been screwing that up too ,all these years....
This thread and the videos were posted as a request by other members and moderators,it was never my intent to be anything else but to help them... I'll ignore all other comments from here on, that arnt related to how to use it or to help with any problems that might occur using it...To all the hundreds of members that have PM'd me that tried it sucessfully ....Thank you for the nice comments.....and not getting involved in the debate like I asked...Mike O.

Last edited by deadbodyman; 08-29-2010 at 09:15 AM.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2010, 09:17 AM
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If I were to use ospho, I know I'd be flushing it w/copious amounts of water to be darned sure there was no acidic residue. Overnight or after a week or a month. Whether or not that's actually necessary- for ME- is a moot point, I'm just too anal to do otherwise.

But the bottom line would seem to be, that as long as there's no residue- of ANY type- left after a treatment w/ospho, there should be no problems w/adhesion from having used the ospho in the first place.

I realize that rinsing/scuffing negates at least a portion of the convenience of using ospho in the first place. But to assure there was nothing left behind, I personally would be using a scotch pad w/a lot of water to be as sure as I could.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2010, 09:54 AM
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Also ,When its done its job of protecting bare steel from surface rust and your ready tp prime,it can easily be sanded off with 180 ,so you can sand it completly off if you want ,there's never been any doubt that it does protect against surface rust...So you just sand it off one panel at a time,prep and prime .and not worry about any kind of reaction with the primer... sometimes I get carried away sanding because it looks better and better the more you sand and sand it off( it'll actually start shinning)..but I also remove the black from the heavyrust with a wire wheel and reapply until the rust spot stops turning black...so I'm removing the rust not converting it...it dosent say anything about that in the directions either....But keep in mind the automotive industry only accounts for 1% of it total sales its mostly use for big projects like metal roofing and those big water towers ,mostly people buy it 200 gallon s at a time...its been around forever...As faras neutralizing with water goes ,all I can say is I never did it like that, I just sand or scuff then dewax...
Gentlemen, I gotta go visit my new grandson born saturday ....
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