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Old 04-04-2005, 10:54 PM
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Oxy-Acetaline welding

I've asked my tech teacher if they have a welder in the school. She said they've got an OA setup, not electric welders. Can I use that for fixing rust holes and stuff like that on the car? If not, how much dies it cost to rent a welder and how much electricity does it eat up?

Alex

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Old 04-04-2005, 11:10 PM
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alex_0227,

Oxygen/Acetyene welding is very forgiving but the sheet metal you will be working with will not. The heat will cause the panels to warp and distort.
You might be able to rent a portable welder but I think there is a safety problem. I think the rental place would want to be sure that you knew what you were doing before they rented you a welder.
As for the power needed I think that depends on how much you use it. But I think it is like a clothes dryer maybe more because it is running longer periods of time. The draw is greatest when you strick the arc but as long as it is on it draws voltage which will spinn the electrial wheel like a top.

A gas or diesel powered welder is the way to go.

Scholman
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Old 04-04-2005, 11:26 PM
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you want a mig welder for that sort of thing, but I think it sounds like you need to invest some time in learning how to use it first. OA welding is really not the right type for this application, and it takes quite a bit of skill to do properly. You'd more than likely just torch right through the light sheet metal, espeically if it had any rust on it (which you should cut away completely, first).

K
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Old 04-05-2005, 12:14 AM
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Alex,

I will wager that my experience is similar to many other "old timer's". For many years all my 'light' welding was done with O/A and all my heavy welding was done with stick. Since, many years ago, when I purchase a MIG welder, my O/A system mostly gathers dust. It does get used occasionally. I find that I like the control I have when welding up exhaust pipe for example. Of course, I still use it to heat material when that need arises. It is also handy for the occasional brazing job where, for instance, you need to 'fill'. I also like to use 'Muggy Weld' when I am repairing/modifying zinc parts, like the tail light stands on my '36. But I NEVER use it to weld sheet metal.

Last edited by 36scsc; 04-05-2005 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 04-05-2005, 05:39 AM
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AS mentioned, heat is an issue. It is not a matter of light or heavy welding. The torch will have to be applied far too long to achieve a proper weld. This will warp the light sheet metal panel and cause much more work than with a mig or tig.

Vince
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Old 04-05-2005, 08:22 AM
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What about welding thicker metal? (Engine mount, stuff like that).

I saw that home depot rents mig welders, does anyone know how much they want for that? On the website they said they show you how to use their rental tools. Does that mean that they teach you how to weld or just turn it on, off... and so on?

Alex
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:10 AM
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Alex-
Old skool rodders use O/A extensively. They use a method called "Hammer Welding". This is a method where, as you weld, you hammer or stretch the metal back out. The metal will contract when heated/welded. You then hammer on the redhot weld. It flattens and stretches the metal at the same time. This allows you to control the shrinkage and keeps the metal flat. Its is desired over MIG because MIG weld is so much harder to grind/sand/level than the OA weld. IT IS SLOWER, but works very good. There is photos of Gene Winfield in my Project Journal doing this. THis method is good for sheetmetal up to 16 gauge or so. Definately thicker than auto sheetmetal. (19 ga+/- at tops) . Basically, anything thicker can be stick welded.

THE HAMMER WELDING TAKES PRACTICE !!! But you LEARN WHAT METAL DOES. You will see how it reacts to heat. Take (2) 18"x6" strips and try to weld them together in shop class. As you place a tack weld, hammer it with a body hammer and a dolly. Then move about 6" from that weld and repeat. Try to keep a space between the sheets the same distance as the material thickness. When you master that, then move on to a surface with a crown. Its not as easy as MIG, but when you are done, its better. Same principal as learning to use a spray gun vs a rattle can. Rattle's faster and easir, right?


Where in NY are you? Dutch Comstock is having a Metalmeet in July. He lives in Herkimer, and the guys from metalmeet are all pretty cool. Be prepared to LEARN and DO! No sideline stuff. You get to try it all. English wheel, Shrinkers, stretchers, pullmax, hammer/dolly, shrinking tucks, etc. You will be able to do a cycle fender while your there. FREE !!! (Although everyone throws in $20.00 or so each to offset his costs and metal) See metalmeet.com for more info. Also, pay attention to what Randy Ferguson or John Kelley posts in Exterior here. The guys are extremely talented metalworkers.

Jeff
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_0227
What about welding thicker metal? (Engine mount, stuff like that).

I saw that home depot rents mig welders, does anyone know how much they want for that? On the website they said they show you how to use their rental tools. Does that mean that they teach you how to weld or just turn it on, off... and so on?

Alex
I'm sure they don't teach you how to weld. But you can learn how to use a mig yourself pretty fast. You should get yourself a how-to book though. You need to know about all the safety aspects of welding that a book will also give you info on.

You want to use a mig with shielding gas instead of using the flux coated wire. It is much better for sheet metal welding that way. I doubt they rent migs with gas, check and find out. The flux coated wire might be a better option for things like motor mounts. The small mig units will do up to about 1/4 steel and that is with multiple passes.

I have one of the Lincoln mig welders similar to the one that Home Depot sells. The Lincoln mig that they carry is a good unit but I went for the next higher model (sp135+) with the variable voltage adjustment. The Lincoln model that HD sells has a 4 position switch for voltage. If you buy or rent HD's Lincoln mig, you will need to go to a welding supply shop and rent a bottle of CO2/Argon mix shielding gas. You may also need to get a roll of the fluxless wire. Get the thinner .023-.025 wire. The welder's drive roller can be reversed to drive either the small wire or the larger wire, check this if you rent.

Roger
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Old 04-05-2005, 10:04 AM
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Tig

I don't wanna go off topic here, but what about TIG welding? What about that? Hows that different?

Alex
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Old 04-05-2005, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302/Z28
.... It is not a matter of light or heavy welding. The torch will have to be applied far too long to achieve a proper weld. This will warp the light sheet metal panel and cause much more work than with a mig or tig.

Vince
"It is not a matter of light or heavy welding?" It sure was before MIG was an option(which was my point)! How would you have welded in an 18 gauge patch panel before MIG was an option? With your stick welder? I don't think so.
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Old 04-05-2005, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_0227
I don't wanna go off topic here, but what about TIG welding? What about that? Hows that different?

Alex
Tigs are cool, the ultimate for a hobby welder or when extreme accuracy is needed. They use a tungsten tip w/shielding gas and you feed the wire manually into the arc with your other hand. This welding is more involved and more expensive (they start at around $1,200) and is probably overkill for the average car guy.
A mig is the way to go for most car hobbyists.

Roger
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Old 04-05-2005, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenaway2long
Alex-
Old skool rodders use O/A extensively. They use a method called "Hammer Welding". This is a method where, as you weld, you hammer or stretch the metal back out. The metal will contract when heated/welded. You then hammer on the redhot weld. It flattens and stretches the metal at the same time. This allows you to control the shrinkage and keeps the metal flat. Its is desired over MIG because MIG weld is so much harder to grind/sand/level than the OA weld.
Jeff
I think there is every chance you may be confusing our young thread starter with this odd example you have chosen. You start out, it would seem, using the example of knocking out a dent, then you end up talking about how it is better than using MIG. NOBODY uses MIG to knock out dents! Lets compare apples to apples. MIG is the ONLY way, for example, to weld in a patch panel. The only thing I could get out of your post is maybe you need to work on your grinding skills. I, for one, have no difficulty at all grinding down a MIG weld after attaching a patch panel. You simply hold the grinder at an angle such that the edge of the wheel touches only the weld, don't get in a hurry (heat), then when you are near( but not at) the elevation of the base material, change to a new, sharp (4-4.5")sanding disk.

Another post is also trying to confuse our young hot rodder..

."You want to use a mig with shielding gas instead of using the flux coated wire. It is much better ".

MIG is an acronym meaning "Metal Inert Gas" If your are using flux core it ain't MIG, it's simply "wire feed". He is also ignoring a flux core product called "20 gauge" which is designed specifically for wire feed sheet metal welding.

Last edited by 36scsc; 04-05-2005 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 04-05-2005, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 36scsc
Another post is also trying to confuse our young hot rodder..

."You want to use a mig with shielding gas instead of using the flux coated wire. It is much better ".

MIG is an acronym meaning "Metal Inert Gas" If your are using flux core it ain't MIG, it's simply "wire feed". He is also ignoring a flux core produced called "20 gauge" which is designed specifically for wire feed sheet metal welding.
Hmmm. Very diplomatic reply.
Of course you are correct but the confusing part is the way Mig welders are advertised by saying things like "Will weld with or without gas" . I certainly was not "trying" to confuse him. Welders advertised as Mig welders don't include cylinders and many don't even include the guages.
Good tip about the 20 gauge.
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Old 04-05-2005, 11:35 AM
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Rodger1,

Ha! You are clearly a good sport! And on the subject of being "correct", its back to you. It is confusing. That is why I think "word smithing" is as important as "metal smithing" on threads like this where a young person is trying to get a handle on all this stuff.
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Old 04-05-2005, 12:25 PM
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This is a pretty funny thread. Until cheapie MIG machines came on the market not that long ago, ALL sheet metal work was done w/ an oxy/acetylene torch & bare steel rod or coat hangers, whichever you had available at the time. I can't count how many yards of O/A joint I have welded in sheet metal. Sure there is some warpage associated with it but as mentioned above, the shrinkage is pretty easy to pound out using a hammer-on-dolly technique directly on the weld bead. For sure all I use now is MIG but give O/A credit where it is due. Wouldn't have Barris' Ala Kart, Cushenberry's Matador & Sillhouette, etc. without it!!
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