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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-17-2009, 03:15 PM
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this is not even a debate. the gentlemen above has offered some very good safty advice. if you chose not to follow that advice thats ok it is your choice your life , all we ask is just one favor ,,, please leave an address so we know where to send the flowers !!!!
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-17-2009, 05:09 PM
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So I guess this applies to all high psi gas valves?

I always just give my C-25 bottle a .25 or .5 turn.. I know its not really dangerous to leak an inert gas, but that stuff ain't all that cheap.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:37 PM
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I think so WeirdBeard.

I been Wondering if the 1/4 turn thing apply's to the old style tanks with the "T" handles?

I Hate those but it would be really hard to knock the valve off of one of them.




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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-17-2009, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Keller
I think so WeirdBeard.

I been Wondering if the 1/4 turn thing apply's to the old style tanks with the "T" handles?

I Hate those but it would be really hard to knock the valve off of one of them.




R

Those "T handle" tanks will leak around the stem too if only partially opened but those danged things are just a PITA any way you look at them! IMHO they should be outlawed because they are a no win situation, they would be very clumsy and slow to shut off if the handle is missing and they are just as prone to leak as the wheel type. I especially despise the one's that have the regulator opening straight up with the T handle valve at an angle on the side, this allows dirt and any other debris to fall into the opening. If left outside they will usually be standing full of water and in cold weather they will usually be full of ice! When I ran my shop I refused to take delivery of the T handle type tanks and after they left them the third time I threatened to change suppliers if they left any more, I was not bluffing!

Since this came up again I dug out a Scott-Gross welding catalog that has an excellent tech section in it and to quote from the section on setting up torches

"Open each cylinder valve slowly and stand in a position that you can see the cylinder pressure gauge hand on the regulator, but never stand directly in front of the regulator gauge faces. open the valve only slightly at first until the pressure gauge hand has stopped moving and then open BOTH valves FULLY". The valve must be fully opened to the stop in order to obtain the proper seal and should not be used with the valve only partially open. The extra emphasis on "both" and "fully" is mine however they are clearly stating to open the Acetylene valve all the way and in an earlier chapter on welding equipment they have a break-down on gauges, regulators, back-flow valves and tank valves that explains how each works and the proper procedures for using and maintaining them.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2009, 12:04 PM
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Thanks again Red can you take a shot of that?

I would like to add it to the WIKI.

A Phone # too so I can ask for Copyright Permission.




R
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2009, 05:22 PM
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Now I'm confused. I've been able to find instructions that say LP valves should be fully opened, but everything I find about acetylene says not.

"Welders Handbook" by Richard Finch and Tom Monroe, copyright 1985, p. 46: "Now, open the acetylene valve one-half turn at the cylinder."

Victor "Welding and Cutting Outfit Safety and Operating Instructions", 2007, p. 3-15: "If using LP type fuel gas, open the cylinder valve completely. If using acetylene, open the cylinder valve 3/4 of a turn and no more than 1 1/2 turns."

Pittsburgh "Welding & Cutting Equipment" (now there's a reference), no date, p. 9: "Acetylene cylinder valve should be opened a maximum of one turn."

Finally:

1910.253(b)(5)(iii)(K)

An acetylene cylinder valve shall not be opened more than one and one-half turns of the spindle, and preferably no more than three-fourths of a turn.
OSHA Regulations, Oxygen-fuel gas welding and cutting. - 1910.253

Why? None of these answer that, nor do any of them show a diagram of the workings of an acetylene cylinder valve. I've never cut one open, so I don't really know how they're made.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2009, 05:34 PM
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Well All I can say is For many years I would walk thru the Bone Yard & there would be Row after Row of cars that were impacted driver to driver.

Not that ANY ONE listen to my young punk arse but Every time I saw a Full on impact in one of them crash tests I would ***** it was wrong ,the forces involved are completely different from Full on & D/S to D/S.


Well the rest of the world eventually caught up.

Go Figure.




R
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2009, 07:21 PM
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Like I said it is a "knee jerk" reaction and you can find it in print both ways so that is why I said we will probably not convince many, if any. Fellows be your own judge but when you ask anyone who says to only crack the valve the ONLY reason they can come up with is to be able to shut it off quicker but that makes almost no sense when you really think about it, try turning it off from full open and you will see what I mean. It may take a second or so longer which might, maybe, if the planets are aligned just right make a difference in some cases but honestly it is far more likely to be the cause of the fire in the first place. If those who still don't believe opening the valve all the way is the right thing to do would just do that soapy water test I think they would be surprised at how often they will find those valves leaking, I am not just guessing it was standard procedure when a tank was used inside my shop and leaking valves at the stem were common! Once more I will ask why is the valve built with a double seal? Think about it, that thing has a taper seat type seal on the bottom of the plunger and an identical taper seal on the top that will seal the valve stem solidly but it has nothing but the soft packing around the stem to seal the gas pressure when only partially open. Also as I have pointed out several times before when a leak is found around the stem, and these are common, opening the valve the rest of the way to full WILL STOP THIS LEAK! Why is that? This is a common myth because it at first SEEMS like the thing to do to be able to quickly shut off the valve but honestly is a leaky valve really safer? Back in 1968 when I first was told about this the instructor told us then that this was such an ingrained misconception it would probably never be corrected and several years later I saw two instructors at a mine safety class nearly come to blows over this subject but if you ever find that little yellow flame licking up around the valve stem maybe you will see what I mean. Do it the safe way and use the soapy water, that has convinced more people than anything else that I know of.
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Old 01-19-2009, 07:37 PM
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That is yet another excellent explanation. One has to wonder if the turn of the century valving needs an update. Hmmm.

It comes down to, how does one view oneself, are you book smart, or are you wise?
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Fellows be your own judge but when you ask anyone who says to only crack the valve the ONLY reason they can come up with is to be able to shut it off quicker but that makes almost no sense when you really think about it, try turning it off from full open and you will see what I mean. It may take a second or so longer which might, maybe, if the planets are aligned just right make a difference in some cases but honestly it is far more likely to be the cause of the fire in the first place.
That's what bugs me the most -- there's no explanation of why the "valve shall not be opened more than one and one-half turns". Where are the tales of catastrophes directly attributable to opening the valve fully?

What you and Rob are advising seems more logical than opening the valve partially, if that partial opening is solely to allow faster closing of the valve in case of a fire somewhere other than at the tank. I've never seen any other explanation for that warning to partially open the valve.

Maybe we can come up with other scenarios, based on user experience, that support the widely given instruction about partially opening the valve.

What about a blow-out of the gas hose, without an immediate fire? Would a wide open valve result in significant difference in the time it takes for acetone to start being sucked out of the tank? ... or in the time it takes to get to that critical percentage (2%?) of gas in the area needed for explosion?

This thing needs more research and discussion, IMO.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2009, 08:42 AM
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I have also heard that another reason for only cracking the valve is to help control the flow in case of a blow-out but this makes even less sense than the shut off time. The usual advice to just crack the valve ranges from only a 1/4 turn to a turn and a half but at one and a half turns it would be flowing wide open anyway and trying to use the valve to regulate flow would not work because of tank pressure variations, besides you would have absolutely no idea of where to set the valve on any given tank. Add to this the fact that the only way the tank could discharge at a wide open rate would be to blow the regulator off at the fitting and this argument starts to border on being ridiculous. As far as the shut off time between the open vs partially open valve it just goes back to what I said earlier, it would at first SEEM like the safer thing to do until you look at how the valve is made and why which it seems hardly anyone does. In any event that soapy water test at the valve stem (sometimes it is bad enough to smell or even hear it leaking!) will bring to light just how often those stem seals leak and then stopping that leak by opening the valve fully is about the most convincing argument I know of, I have seen this make believers out of more than one!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:27 AM
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Oldred
While I usually agree with what you say, I have to disagree on this one. In 50 years of welding, I have had maybe 2 actylene valves leak and 1 of those was in the regulator seat. A spanner wrench that my gas supplier gave me cured the leak with less than a 1/8 th turn on the packing with the gas on. Nearly all o2 valves leak if they aren't backseated when opened.
I open acetylene 1/2 turn if the bottle has a T handle and backseat knob type valves. Internal differences require this. A knob valve has a orifice that controls flow to 1/7th tank capacity per hour. A T valve doesn't have this orifice and the 1/2 turn is the controller. Opening a T valve more than this makes a unsafe condition due to the instability of Acetylene and also increases the possibility of drawing Acetone along with the gas. Every book I have ever seen says if a draw of more than 1/7 th tank capacity per hour is required, tanks must be manifolded to provide the required flow. When using a #2 rosebud, I use at least 3 tanks. So, if what you are doing requires more than a 1/2 turn on the T valve or more than 8 psi, get more tanks. If you have to jack the pressure on the gauge to more than 8 psi to get the desired flame on knob valves, get more tanks. Acetylene gas starts to become unstable at 12 psi and is explosive at 15 psi.
Do this and be safe.
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 61bone
Oldred
While I usually agree with what you say, I have to disagree on this one. In 50 years of welding, I have had maybe 2 actylene valves leak and 1 of those was in the regulator seat. A spanner wrench that my gas supplier gave me cured the leak with less than a 1/8 th turn on the packing with the gas on.

I will assume these were leaking bad enough to notice without using a test fluid (such as soapy water) and that is exactly what we are talking about. If you had of used a checking fluid you would almost certainly have found many more that went unnoticed, at least it has been that way for me as I have found a great many leaks doing this and I am sure others would have too. The fact you had to use a spanner wrench to cure those leaks by snugging up this seal is further proof of what we are talking about because nowhere in any manual I have ever read does it suggest trying to tighten up a valve stem packing to stop a leaking stem seal nor should the consumer be required to, besides how many welders even have this spanner tool (I did however have one at my shop) and how many gas suppliers would be willing to provide one? Sorry but the leaks you found are exactly the problem and if you had of opened the valves the rest of the way the leaks would have stopped because that is the way the valves are designed, again if the valve is opened completely it will seal with a tapered metal plunger against a tapered seat giving a positive seal but a partially open valve must rely on that soft stem seal which, as the leaks you mention indicate, can leak. To each his own opinion but the unlikely situation where being able to shut that valve off a second quicker would make a difference would seem to be far outweighed by the possibility that it would be to extinguish a fire that should not have happened in the first place.


EDIT, I just realized only one of the leaks you mention was due to the seal and one was due to a regulator seat but my reply sounds as if both types of leak would be stopped by opening the valve which is of course not true.

Last edited by oldred; 01-20-2009 at 12:52 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 06:34 PM
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All connections get tested with soap solution with every tank replacement. I consider even a occasional bubble as a leak.
I assume that your years of experience have taught you more about these valves than what the people that build them know so I stand corrected.
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Old 01-22-2009, 07:42 PM
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I have been following this tread with some interest. Below is a picture of my cutting torch after it was returned by a friend. I just about freaked out and told him he was lucky he didn't get burned severely or worse. I made it very clear how unhappy I was with condition and it was replaced promptly.

Vince
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