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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
You are being an idiot. (And it won;t work) Just take the car to an exhaust shop and they will get the old sensor out for you.

Well, by you saying it can't be done is good reason to believe it can be done. Thanks for the 02 schooling though, just don't apply for a tech school teaching spot to brow beat the kiddies.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2012, 10:48 AM
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OxySensor Fiasco

Would the voltage fluctuate that quickly? I can imagine fluctuating between readings given between 1000 degrees F and 1200., but in a closed loop idle, why such a quick fluctuation as mentioned. Yes, I am curious. That's how the human mind works sometimes. One thing I'm certain of, a muffler shop will never lay eyes on this car. Where's the learning process in that?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2012, 10:49 AM
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Get your 10 year old to fix your car for you.
He/she probably has more of a clue.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Get your 10 year old to fix your car for you.
He/she probably has more of a clue.

Ah, so you are a vocational school teacher. And I'm guessing 21 years old with a Haynes manual.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-1
Would the voltage fluctuate that quickly? I can imagine fluctuating between readings given between 1000 degrees F and 1200., but in a closed loop idle, why such a quick fluctuation as mentioned. Yes, I am curious. That's how the human mind works sometimes. One thing I'm certain of, a muffler shop will never lay eyes on this car. Where's the learning process in that?
The learning process is the same as DIY neurosurgery... you learn that sometimes wishing and hoping you can do something still doesn't change the fact that you can't.

If you want it done right remove the damn manifold, then replace the sensor. If you were really about the learning process then that would have been done already.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:57 AM
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That's not fair to the good voc school teachers who inspire young minds and build confidence.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
The learning process is the same as DIY neurosurgery... you learn that sometimes wishing and hoping you can do something still doesn't change the fact that you can't.

If you want it done right remove the damn manifold, then replace the sensor. If you were really about the learning process then that would have been done already.

I don't need to learn what it's like to drill out and heli-coil manifold bolt holes. Thanks for the offer anyways. I know there are mature mechanics on this board. Age has nothing to do with it, but stability helps.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-1
The ECM is getting no feedback from an 02 sensor as it now stands and for the most part it runs just fine on the preprogrammed tables on the chip. Sometimes the engine light doesn't come on, but the fuel is rich.

What about a PWM to vary the voltage in the appropriate range? I think what you are talking about would be more critical on a wide band OBD2 system. As I said, I haven't had much reason to consider the workings of an 02 sensor in the scheme of things until now; weighing my options as it were - slanting towards something less "cheater bar" fashioned.
The problem w/"tricking" the ECM by feeding it a middle-of-the-road signal is the air/fuel ratio will be correct only a tiny portion of the time. I'm sure you could get the engine to run, and possibly run well enough that you don't kill it immediately- but the only sensible thing to do is remove the old one or weld a new bung and install a fresh sensor there.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
The problem w/"tricking" the ECM by feeding it a middle-of-the-road signal is the air/fuel ratio will be correct only a tiny portion of the time. I'm sure you could get the engine to run, and possibly run well enough that you don't kill it immediately- but the only sensible thing to do is remove the old one or weld a new bung and install a fresh sensor there.

Thanks for the reply cobalt327. Yes, that is the sensible and desirable thing to do. This car is a work car. I mean very often pulling a half ton load. It works so well at doing it that my F-250 is still setting in the garage stripped down to a short block waiting to be fixed. As a journal note - The car is a clunker in most peoples eyes. I looks fairly good, but it has held up to very much and will be used as long as it doesn't take up too much time to maintain. If all else fails, cobalt327, I'll do the job right, when I get the time. Too busy to get too overly involved right now, but always time to consider things and experiment. I mean, it's a 1988 Regal and there are other things to be repaired, like the house, guitar, truck, bike, customer PC's. hence the need to get this car to pass inspection and repair better when time permits. I know if I end up pulling the head to repair broken manifold bolts and stuck 02 sensor, that will tempt me to do a total rebuild. Probably nobody but me can relate to that. Thanks a bunch for your sane and proper answer!
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:34 AM
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When I get this PC job out the door and the rain passes over, I am going to get the beefier torch tip and give it another go, but I'm going to get some brazing rod too so I can legally drive it AND occasionally work on it till I get it in decent order. If time runs out on me before inspection, I'll slap the "Farm Use" magnetic signs on the door until I get a proper repair. hehe
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2012, 11:37 AM
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Oh, cobalt327, thanks for the analysis on tricking the ECM with a "middle of the road" voltage. Now THAT gives me something to chew on. Thanks!
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:44 AM
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The O2 will change the a/f ratio VERY rapidly, it's far from stationary except at WOT. You'd be better off leaving the sensor disconnected than to feed the ECM false info. That's just not gonna work. If you can braze, just fit a new bung, seal off the old sensor and be done w/it. But w/o an O2 sensor working, ain't no way you're gonna pass inspection.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
The O2 will change the a/f ratio VERY rapidly, it's far from stationary except at WOT. You'd be better off leaving the sensor disconnected than to feed the ECM false info. That's just not gonna work. If you can braze, just fit a new bung, seal off the old sensor and be done w/it. But w/o an O2 sensor working, ain't no way you're gonna pass inspection.

Here in WV, as long as the brakes, tires, lights, glass, exhaust are in tact with no body parts flapping in the wind; it will pass.
Hard to start and rough running engine raises no eyebrows. THANK GOD!
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:55 AM
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Back to work my friends.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:20 PM
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OxySensor Fiasco

By the way, this engine runs smooth much of the time; idles easy without the 02 connected, except sometimes pulling a heavy load it will run a little rough because of the rich fuel mixture I guess. Pull in to get gas and restart to a smooth idle, zippy take-off. Haven't had any plug trouble. All of this has led me to believe that this OBD1 system is not as finnicky as I originally thought. That's where the "fooling the ECM" idea came in. I thought I might join the idea of manually leaning out the fuel mixture and injecting HHO. Mind games.
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