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Old 01-20-2010, 11:43 PM
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Paint and body work warranties ?

May I pick some brains? I've been researching on resto. paint and body work. I've found as many people for soda blasting as against it, same goes for chemical stripping and other media blasting. Paint and body is something I have little experience with and it's one of those thing I would rather pay someone to do. So, with so many people having problems and out right horror stories, I've been asking for warranties their work. As in, a written warranty and labor estimate on paper. This doesn't seem to be common practice, I've only talked to a few people and none can provide a written warranty. So, in the end, I will be taking full liability for any failure on the paint and body work. What is a normal warranty on resto. work, if any?

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Old 01-21-2010, 05:28 AM
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demand a list of references and check them out. you should be able to get at least 10 . 2 or 3 will get you cousins and brother in laws . then check them out and go see the car. make sure your dealing with a shop that has a track record and has been in business for a good while.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:05 AM
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If they do everything from start to finish they should be able to give a warranty,I do,and I'm sure Shine does also...but a warranty isnt any good if the shop is out of business five years from now so go with an established shop for any major cash kind of work theres a lot of fly by nights that'll promise you anything so check them out well....see their older work,along with the references.Pretty much everything looks good for a year or so but hows the five year old work look or after ten years????
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:11 PM
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They article below doesn't address your question directly but offers some tips on the basic subject of picking a shop.

On the warrantees, they are as good as the paper they are written on basically. We are talking MORALS and Charactor here, if the shop has morals and good charactor they will back up mistakes they made, warrantee or no warrantee. If they have no morals and charactor, no warrantee is going to help you much, other than in court.

We have a lifetime of ownershop warrantee where I work. We could get out of most every warrantee claim IF we wanted to, simply by how it is written. We however, have VERY high morals and charactor (one of the reasons I have worked here so long) and will warrantee just about anything people come back with, our fault or not (within reason of course).

But you won't find that everywhere, and as Shine said, knowing their work is most important. In other words, not having to NEED the warrantee is the best warrantee.

As Shine and DBM said, do your homework.

Brian

PS: And PLEASE all you shop owners don't get your panties in a wad over my comments in the following article. I am not talking about YOU, I have not taken a trip and looked in YOUR shop to make my comments. These are GENERALITIES of shops I HAVE seen. If you take it personally, you are doing that on your own.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>

Confessions of a body shop owner.
By Brian Martin


“Anybody know of a good body shop in (enter your city name here)?”, “How do I get my body shop to work on my car?”, “My car is being held for ransom!”, or just simply “Body shop Blues”. I’m sure you have all seen topics similar to these posted. Gentlemen, my name is MARTINSR and I was one of those dirty rotten bastards that would keep your car ten times longer than I promised.

For the guy not doing his own body work or at least not all of it, he is at the mercy of the body shop. It is not a nice position to be in. In fact, it can go down as one of the low points in your life. I have seen horror stories that would make your hair stand on end. A long time customer of mine (he owned about 60 cars and usually had a few in shops around the area at all times) had a car that was held as evidence in a murder. Yep, it had blood splattered on it when one of the shops owners killed the other with a baseball bat!

The following is my generalization of restoration shops that I have owned, seen or worked at. There are exceptions to the rule. Please don’t beat me up if I have rolled your shop into the mix when you are an exception. But, if you do see yourself, I suggest you get down to your neighborhood junior college and take a course or two in business. One of the great myths is that we each think our business is so unique, we can’t learn from a “regular” business class. Well after much instruction and exposure to the business side of things I can tell you, business is BUSINESS. Whether you are running a liqueur store, a cat house, or a body shop, they are all exactly the same. Sales are SALES, period.

So, we can agree a body shop is a business, being a good body man does not make you a good businessman. Restoration shops are often owned by good body men, not good businessmen. It is very hard to make money doing restoration work, it is very easy to make money doing regular collision work. The business man makes his money doing collision work and tells all the customers with restoration work to go to Joe’s Body shop down the street, he does the restorations. Joe loves doing what he is doing, but seldom makes much money. He is an artist, a true master at his craft. Joe sees things at what they can “become”, not what they “are”. When Joe sees a car he doesn’t see the time it will take to make it the show winner he knows it will be, he only sees it as the show winner. I really don’t believe he means to lie to you when he says it will be done in a month, he is looking at through rose colored glasses, his vision is altered. Like a woman forgets the pain of giving birth, so does Joe when he gazes upon the beautiful car he has carried for nine months (or longer). And when the next rust bucket rolls in, he has forgotten about the hundreds of hours needed, he only sees a luscious rose garden.

Like I said few make a living at restoration or hot rod work. The biggies that you have heard of like Roy Brizio or Boyd Codington all make money with other ventures, not the rod shop. The first time I visited Brizios shop this was very apparent. The rod shop is about 5000 square feet sitting in the middle of a 50,000 square foot building. The rest of the building is Brizios manufacturing business. It is all non auto related by the way. The rod shop is a hobby, I don’t doubt for a second he makes money, but it is a hobby none the less.

So when you go looking for a shop to do your car you have to remember this, you are most likely going to be dealing with an artist. If you think the business end of it is going to go smooth, think again. If you build yourself up and believe everything, you are in for a BIG let down. If you set yourself up for less than that you will be much better off. I suggest getting ready for MUCH, MUCH less and then you will be happy when it only takes five months instead of the ten you got ready for. If he said one month and that is what you are planning, by the time five months rolls around you are ready to kill someone.

These are HUGE generalizations but I have found a few signs that may help you in picking out a shop. If nothing else they will help you understand who you are dealing with.

1. If there is more than one car sitting in the shop covered with dust, this may be a bad sign. If you have been around body shops much you know that dust build up is like the rings in a tree, you can tell by the layers and colors how many YEARS it has been sitting. If there is a car that is being used for storage of misc. boxes and things, bad sign. My brother used to joke that I should bolt a vice on the fender of the car, at least I could get some use out of it! Coyly ask “Cool car, is that yours?” if he says “Naw, it’s a customers”, BAD SIGN. If there are ten stalls in the shop and six have dust covered cars in them, RUN. I shouldn’t have to tell you this one, but if there are guys hanging around with beers in their hands, RUN.


2. How many stalls does he have? I have found that the real restoration/rod shops seem to have only room to have three or four cars at a time. If you only had room to work on three cars, you are going to be damn certain they get out so you can have room for the next. One of the most successful custom shops I have ever seen was a little four stall shop in Pittsburgh California. It is the famous (well at least on the west coast) DeRosa and son Customs. Frank has been around since the fifties making show winning cars. He and his son Frank Jr. do the same today and do it FAST. They a neat, little and clean shop. If you have seen the 2001 DuPont calendar they did the “Cadster”. It was only in the shop for a few weeks. By the way, it doesn’t have DuPont primers on it like the calendar says, Martin Senour primer was used.

3. Does he look at your car like they do at the McPaint shops, you know, all jobs all colors the same price? If he doesn’t take a good long look at the car taking notes, he has no clue what he is doing. He is looking at the car with those rose colored glasses. Every single panel should be examined and noted for the amount of hours needed. If he just looks over the car without doing this he is surely going to be WAY off. If he is way off on how much he is charging you, what incentive does he have to work on it?


So let’s say you have a shop you would like to bring it to, you really need to case the joint. Turn into a stalker and keep an eye on the shop. You know for months that you are going to need a body shop. Watch the shops for months. Drive by during business hours and see if they are actually open. Many of these guys (remember they are not good businessmen) take their open sign as sort of a guide line. If it says 8:00 to 5:00 it is more like 9:15 to 2:00 then 4:25 to 7:00, they can’t get your car done like that. See if any cars leave. If you go by there and see the same cars sitting there and many little jobs going in and out, BAD SIGN. I have to tell you, those little money making collision jobs are dang hard to turn away. If I had a million hour job sitting there and it was the 28th of the month I am going to set it aside for the $800.00 job I can do in two days to pay the rent.

If they don’t allow you to walk around and check the place out, be wary. Look at the paint dept, does he have a booth? Is there junk and open cans all over? Is there many different brands of paint? This is usually not a good sign, he buys anything he can get his hands on. This is many times the sign of a “junior chemist”, they guy that mixes products and doesn’t follow tech sheets.

If you have decided that this is the shop you want to go to, help the poor guy. You “suggest” to him how you want to go about the money part. This is the ONLY way you should do it believe me. Don’t give him a deposit and leave the car. This is darn near a guarantee that your car will be sitting for weeks while he uses that money to buy parts for a high profit collision job or simply pay a long standing bill. Which then leaves your car sitting there with no incentive to work on it.

Here is what you need to do. Tell him that you want to do only ONE of the things on your car, at a time. You want to get a price for all of them maybe so you know what it is headed, but do only one at a time. You will pay him for one step at a time. Not because you don’t trust him, but because YOU are bad with money and that YOU don’t want to leave him hanging after the car is done with no money to pick it up.

This way it is more like he is in control and made the decision. Then you negotiate the time it will take for each step. Let’s say you have patch panels to do on the front fenders. You agree that he will have them done at the end of the week, and that they will cost $200.00. He has something to work for, he knows he will get the money and he actually does it. You go see him on Friday see the work done and give him the $200.00. Then you pick another thing to do. Just as if you were doing these things at home, break them down into bite sized pieces so he can swallow them. If you go in there and find that he hasn’t done it or he has done poor work, you can then say “I am sorry to yank your chain, I don’t have any more money, I just lost my job” and take the car, no body owes a thing. If he does not want to do this, you really need to start rethinking your choice of a shop. Either this or variation of this should be fine with him. If it is not, something is wrong.

If he really wanted to make money he would be doing this. The first restoration job I ever did where I really felt I made money was done just this way. It was a little ’58 Bug eye Sprite. I had decided that something had to be done or I would fall into the same trap as before with a car sitting forever. One of the first shops I ever worked at was a full on restoration shop. It broke the rule and was pretty big, with four full time employees. Every car had a time card assigned to it. When you worked on the car, you punched in. Then each month (these were HUGE frame off restorations on 30’s and 40’s vintage Fords) the owner would receive a bill with the times worked. If they couldn’t pay, the car left, period. The guy made money and I finally got smart (after about 12 years in business) and followed his lead. I put a sign on this Bug Eye and would post the hours I spent on it. I told the guy to come by each week. Now, when the guy came in and saw only two hours were spent, he was not very happy. That was a heck of an incentive for me right there I will tell you that! It worked great, I actually got paid for every minute I worked, unlike most restoration projects. And he actually got the car back in close to what I said. It was still late, but not ten times as late as I had done before.

Another thing I highly recommend is to take plenty of photos of the car, really detailed photos. When you drop the car off leave him a copy of them. Letting him know you have a copy. Not threatening like “I am doing this so I can prove you lied to me” more like “I can’t wait to see how different it is and you can have these before shots to show future customers”. Which is true, it is just not the only reason you are doing it. If he is doing a full on restoration for you, I HIGHLY recommend parts like chrome and interior be taken home after he removes them so they don’t get stolen or damaged. You need to have a very close relationship with the shop, if these visits make the guy edgy, you really need to find another shop.

If you have the attitude that you are genuinely interested in how this work is done, not how he will do YOUR car, but just in general. You will find that he will be much more likely to “show off” his talents than if you go in there like an untrusting customer.

Along with these photos you want a VERY detailed work order. Run like the wind if he has no work order. Still run if he has a work order that says “fix dents and rust” as the repairs being done. RUN, I say. You need to have a fully detailed work order, not for legal reasons (wink, wink) but for your own records to show the wife where all the money went. The “wife” is a great way to get things done. You need to come look to see what is done because the wife wants to see. Bring her in there, she has an excuse, she knows nothing right? So you bring her in to see what magic this guy is doing to your car so she can understand why it costs so much. Bring a friend when you drop the car off, be sure he hears everything that is said. Let him or her help you make the decision on leaving it there. Sometimes YOU too can be looking through rose colored glasses. If someone else says they have a bad feeling, LISTEN to them.

There are few things that can compare with returning to a shop to find the place is locked tight and the mail is piling up on the floor where the carrier has dropped it through the slot. I have seen it, it really happens. The good news is it is rare, just take your time and find a shop where you feel comfortable.

Last edited by MARTINSR; 01-21-2010 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 01-22-2010, 06:56 AM
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Thanks alot fellas! That puts things in a better perspective. Great article Martin.
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Old 01-22-2010, 05:49 PM
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You're welcome! When I think back of how poorly I ran my shop I can't believe I stayed open for 13 years! I think the fact that the landlord let me slide on the rent a number of times.

Brian
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:12 AM
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Most big chains will honer their warranties.
I give a 5 year warranty on my work, that is considered a "lifetime warranty" in MN, but I chose not to mislead my customers.

Sometimes compromises have to be met as well, if the panel is rock chipped and rusted, then no, I do not warranty that.
If someone comes back because there are sanding scratches in the base coat from primer shrinking, then yes, I warranty that.
If someone has rock chips on a panel and sanding scratches in the base, then I give him a deal to fix the rock chips while I warranty the fender.

So make sure you know what that warranty covers in compromising situations.
Usually a good warranty costs more money, like a big chain might fix rock chips on their warranty panel, but they will charge double for the initial repair.

I heard of paint issues with soda blasting, as far as the media not getting cleaned off well before refinishing and the paint flaking off, but I never encountered that problem personally.
I usually recommend media blasting for rusty vehicles, but if there is minimum rust, or no rust, I would recommend chemical stripping.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:45 AM
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.SORRY....THIS POST DIDN'T BELONG HERE....I dont know how I screwed this up...It belongs in BC/CC refinishing question...Please delete

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Old 01-27-2010, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutterbond
Most big chains will honer their warranties.
I give a 5 year warranty on my work, that is considered a "lifetime warranty" in MN, but I chose not to mislead my customers.
Most "big chains" don't have a REAL warranty, the warranty is PRO-RATED! Meaning that if you bring back a peeling car at 2.5 years you will be paying HALF of what you paid for the paint job for a repair!

That isn't a "warranty" if you ask me!

Brian
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Old 01-28-2010, 12:51 PM
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Man that's a fantastic article. I've been in the resto business about 5 years now and it took me about 4 of those years to figure out why I wasn't making any money. It was those rose-colored glasses mentioned in the article.

I agree....if I do all of the work on a car....from bare metal to finished product I warranty everything unless it's obvious owner abuse.
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Most "big chains" don't have a REAL warranty, the warranty is PRO-RATED! Meaning that if you bring back a peeling car at 2.5 years you will be paying HALF of what you paid for the paint job for a repair!

That isn't a "warranty" if you ask me!

Brian
You get what you pay for.
If it was a classic car that only gets driven in sunshine and stored in a garage, that is easy to warranty for a long time.

You got a '98 Camry that sits outside and never gets washed in the MN winter, you will go broke without somewhat of a prorated system, or you will charge too much to ever get that job in the first place.

I warranty the work I do, not the conditions it's exposed to.
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutterbond
You get what you pay for.
If it was a classic car that only gets driven in sunshine and stored in a garage, that is easy to warranty for a long time.

You got a '98 Camry that sits outside and never gets washed in the MN winter, you will go broke without somewhat of a prorated system, or you will charge too much to ever get that job in the first place.

I warranty the work I do, not the conditions it's exposed to.
We actually have a full life time of ownership warranty on everything, including that 98 Camry. And right this minute at the shop is a Nissan pickup that delamed that we have stripped the entire cab, doors and fenders to repaint. It was done in 2004 at the shop. We do VERY few of these warrantys with this one being the worse I have ever seen.

Today I put a moulding on moulding on the rear door of a 2000 Honda that we repaired around 2001. I think the darn thing got ripped off, but that's ok, we bought new clips and I retaped it today.

If you always do the best you can like no open blends and that sort of thing you can do this. Of course most people don't keep these cars long anyway but that is what most companies count on.

Brian
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Old 01-29-2010, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
We actually have a full life time of ownership warranty on everything, including that 98 Camry. And right this minute at the shop is a Nissan pickup that delamed that we have stripped the entire cab, doors and fenders to repaint. It was done in 2004 at the shop. We do VERY few of these warrantys with this one being the worse I have ever seen.

Today I put a moulding on moulding on the rear door of a 2000 Honda that we repaired around 2001. I think the darn thing got ripped off, but that's ok, we bought new clips and I retaped it today.

If you always do the best you can like no open blends and that sort of thing you can do this. Of course most people don't keep these cars long anyway but that is what most companies count on.

Brian
True.
I do open blends and don't warranty those for long, but when I tell them it's going to be a extra $300-400 to do the roof for full warranty, most of my customers opt out.

It looks good out the door, and if someone comes back over a open blend getting a little dry looking, I'll hit it with a polisher and make it look good again for free.
I never blend on unscuffed paint either, so my blends never flake off and turn white like some I seen, and I never use base by the edge of a blend either.
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