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Old 08-24-2006, 10:33 PM
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The paint did not harden

I did a little job for a friend..Do the bodywork, prime and paint a set of plastic fairings for a 1996 triumph daytona (yes, motorcycle) They were painted before from the factory, not color molded in. The plastic is kind of a yellowish flexible stuff that gets stringy when you grind on it, but will sand to a smooth surface with any grit wet or dry,.I tried to find out the type of plastic , but never did. The SEM problem plastic repair material stuck just fine, so it is not exotic plastic.

I did all the filling and prep and sanded to 320 dry, washed them down with wax and grease remover, primed them with SEM 39134 flexible primer surfacer, waited a day, wet sanded with 400, blew the surface off and let them dry overnight, I had gone through the primer in a couple of places so I cleaned again with wax and grease remover and sealed the primer with omni MP213 sealer.
waited 4 hours and wiped the surface with a new scotchbrite pad and then blew the surface clean with a blowgun. (not the best idea, I know)

I used omni MTK acrylic urethane, mixed 4:1:1 with medium reducer and the "fast" hardener. It was about 8:30 at night and 70* when I sprayed it, 2 wet coats and it flowed out nice with no sags of runs. (I used a no name hvlp gun with a 1.5 tip. first time I ever used a hvlp, those work nice)
The temp never dropped below 60* all night.

Next morning I notice that my paintjob had some fly tracks and other crap on it. (mikeys housekeeping is to blame on that one)
I noticed that the paint was still a little soft, I could dent it with my fingernail..so.

I rolled it out in the sun for about 4 hours, it got pretty hot. I rolled the parts inside and let them cool , then wet sanded with 2000 and polished . It seemed to wet sand ok, although it clogged up the paper a little.
when I polished it I used a foam pad and some maguires # 84 then 82 to finish.

The paint looked like laquer that had blushed, with spots all over. I tried some hand polish but it did nothing.

I noticed that the leftover paint (about 4oz) from the night before never hardened in the dixie cup I had poured it in.

Now it has been over 2 days with the parts in the sun and the paint on the part is still soft enough to ball up under 400 dry sandpaper, the stuff in the cup still has not hardened.

I saw on the product sheet that you can force dry the paint fr 30 minutes @140* so I I started some tests.

I did 2 test batches in little cups with hardener but with no reducer. I put one batch in a little lightbulb oven @125* for 3 hours and it started to gel. It has been almost 12 hours and the heated test batch still isn't all the way hard, while the un heated one will pour like I mixed it just now.

Just for kicks I put 1/2 of the original leftovers in my home made easybake oven and after cooking it 2 hours at 125* it started to gel.


What went wrong? Was it something i did? (no brownies were consumed during this job)

Is this paint crap or the hardener or what???

Is my test flawed? i know that paint in the pot acts different than when it gets sprayed. The urethanes I have sprayed before were rubbery in the pot leftovers for a while after the sprayed part was harder than algebra..

I know I mixed the stuff right the first time. I am absolutly sure I mixed the test batches right.

Do I need to strip all the paint back down to primer?

Can I put the parts in an oven or the sun for 3 days and get this stuff to cure?
I already sanded it and am going to respray it anyway with a new batch, but I will sand it all off if I have to.

I hate rework.
I'm pissed.
The paint store already said they would give me a fresh can of paint and hardener.

What do you guys think?

Thanks for reading this

mikey

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Last edited by powerrodsmike; 08-24-2006 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:14 PM
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Hi Mikey

As you probably already know from my Divco journal I'm also using Omni products on the truck. I'm using MTV mixing 4:1:1. Excellent paint and no runs. I painted the cab and engine a few weeks ago and it set up in about 20 min. (wouldn't stick to my finger) and was hard in about an hour. I asked the paint rep if my old hardener would still be good from last year when I painted my trailer. He said once you open it it only good for about 60 days. Of course he makes his living selling paint so I tested it. I mixed my old hardener with some of my leftover paint. I sprayed some scrap with it and it took a long time to dry. Had a gummy feel to it so I threw it away the next day so I'm not sure how long (or if) it would take to completely cure. I wonder how fresh that hardener was they sold you. Seems suspect to me. Sounds like you did everything right.

How is your water filter working on your compressor. How close is your filter to your gun. I use as short a piece of hose from the compressor to the gun as possible.

Ross
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:17 PM
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You were pretty detailed in your prep steps and I didn't see anything that jumped out at me - Sounds like bad paint hardner. If it was old or had been opened before then you don't have much recourse - if you just bought the paint and hardner I would stop by with a piece and show them also demanding the cover the materials cost at least to redo.

Once I had a PPG rep come to my shop to assist in a redo from a bad batch of paint.

BTW - You will need to strip off any of the paint that has not hardned yet. Remember a paint job is only as good as whats underneath...
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:23 PM
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Thanks Ross, The paint and hardener was bought only days before. I watched the paint store guy mix the paint and the can of hardener still had the little plastic hymen under the lid.

I have 1 big parker filter/ trap at the drop and too much hose.

I could do a little better with that, my air compressor is a kaeser 7 hp oilless with a big intercooler. Makes alot of really dry air. But I still know the junk could have come from there, I am going to do the next spray in a booth at my buds shop.

My concern now is what do I do with the paint that is on the parts. (2 sides and 1 fairing)

Thanks, mikey
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambo_The_Dog
You were pretty detailed in your prep steps and I didn't see anything that jumped out at me - Sounds like bad paint hardner. If it was old or had been opened before then you don't have much recourse - if you just bought the paint and hardner I would stop by with a piece and show them also demanding the cover the materials cost at least to redo.

Once I had a PPG rep come to my shop to assist in a redo from a bad batch of paint.

BTW - You will need to strip off any of the paint that has not hardned yet. Remember a paint job is only as good as whats underneath...
Thanks Rambo,
The paint shop has already said they will cover the paint.

I will strip it if I have to.

I hate rework.
Later, mikey
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:41 PM
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This is very strange. The one thing that pops out at me is when you mention "Dixie cups", did you mix all the paint you have used in some sort of house use paper cup? Being there is nothing else that makes any sense, maybe the solvents have broken up some wax or some crap on the inside of the cup?

Brian
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Old 08-25-2006, 12:12 AM
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Hi brian Strange is normal for me, but you knew that

No dixie cups to mix or measure. i measured the paint in a 4 oz graduated pyrex measuring cup, graduated in 1/2 oz and the actual mixing was done in a binks aluminum paint cup from a fairly new gun. I strained it once from the can into the cup then another straining from the cup into the gun cup.

I did use a "spank my monkey thong" as a strainer NOT!

Dixiecups are waxed paper but I only used them for testing the batches. The paint on the part never saw a dixie cup, (no yankee cups either)

Isn't it a little odd that I mixed 2 small test batches and the only way I could get ANYthing to happen is by heating the stuff to 125 degreees F ? And even with that, none of the stuff in any the test cups is even close to hard.
I'm thinking paint or hardener myself.


Thanks, mikey
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Old 08-25-2006, 07:12 AM
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I do not know that paint at all so there may be a "drier" added to the mix on the scale. If that was left out, no dry sir.

Brian
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Old 08-25-2006, 07:51 AM
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All of the things that were required by me were present and mixed in.

Is drier something the paint shop mixes in?
I know that you can add an optional accelerator in addition to the hardener.
OMNI is a PPG line.
Here is a tech sheet in HTML
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:g...s&ct=clnk&cd=6

I think I have some bad paint or hardener.
Thanks, mikey
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Old 08-25-2006, 08:05 AM
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Yeah Mikey, I know NOTHING about this particular paint. But many SS enamels years ago had a "Drier" that was added along with the toners as part of the "recipe" on the mixing scale. Some basecoats like S-W had one but some have been eliminated over the years with a little change in toner.

I am going back in my memory banks and can't remember the particulars, but I have came across that a time or two. I remember as a rep a store did that to a guy with some acrylic enamel. It didn't dry either.

The simple test you should do now is go back to the store and get another pint of color and hardener if they will give it to you. And using the hardener you used the first time spray a test panel and do the cup test with the left over. Then if it does harden you know it was the paint, if it doesn't , mix up some with the new hardener and give that a try. If it hardens you know it was the old hardener. I will bet against that though, "bad" hardener just doesn't happen like a lot of people think it does. If it is "bad" it is REAL bad and you can see it as you pour it out. I personally have never seen "Bad" hardener and I sold thousands of them.

As I have said many times before, it is 99.9% of the time human error in the store or in the shop that causes failures.

Brian
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Old 08-25-2006, 08:41 AM
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I'm going to give the paint shop the paint and hardener back and let them play. I did my QA stuff already.
I was thinking that I would ask for a credit of the money I paid for the OMNI to be used towards some better grade of paint. I know there is issues with the material at this point.

3 batches from the same can(s) ,all acting the same way, tells me it ain't me.

I guess I'll strip off the paint down to the primer and respray some sealer and repaint.

I guess the gods think I need the practice.

I hate rework.

later, mikey
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Old 08-25-2006, 09:40 AM
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Some times if your primer and the color paint isn't the same brand it will cause trouble.I would pick one paint brand and buy the same brand primer and the same brand color coat.Also i think you did this already but just in case,paint a sealer over top of your primer and then spray your color coat. Again i think you already did that but just in case.
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:59 AM
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Really, mixing brands isn't "that" big of a deal unless you are mixing componants (like hardeners) WITHIN a product. If the primer is fully cured, the paint really doesn't care which brand it is.

Mikey, I am no OMNI pusher but really, it is being shot at shops and home garages all over the country, it has to work. The problem could be the guy at the store and he could mess up your top of the line product just the same!

Brian
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Old 08-25-2006, 11:03 AM
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Ok well im still young and im still learning all this stuff so thanks for the correction.And yes it could have been the guy at the store I didn't think of that
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Really, mixing brands isn't "that" big of a deal unless you are mixing componants (like hardeners) WITHIN a product. If the primer is fully cured, the paint really doesn't care which brand it is.

Mikey, I am no OMNI pusher but really, it is being shot at shops and home garages all over the country, it has to work. The problem could be the guy at the store and he could mess up your top of the line product just the same!

Brian
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Old 08-25-2006, 11:06 AM
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Could the paint need more hardener?
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