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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:46 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Never used water born and dont ever plan too...I feel for you guys that HAVE to use it...
Things have changed, I'll tell you that!

Brian
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:12 AM
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And thirty yrs from now a few old farts will be saying remember the old Urathane days ???? Man that was some kind of crap we had to use,things are so much easier these days....
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
There is no color realistically that you can do a "stick match". ALL colors should be sprayed out and cleared (if they are a BC/CC).

Today, with the waterbornes, you had best spray them out and clear them! HOLY CRAP that color is miles different without being fully dried and cleared! No more brush touching that's for sure!

Before I had a mixing machine I had a bunch of pint cans with toner in them to tint. The paint shop is usually thrilled to give them to you because you won't be bothering them as much.

I am fascinated at the guys I have worked with who will do a spray out card and it matches, then spray the car and it doesn't and blame the paint. The fact that it doesn't match now and it did then is the EVIDENCE that you aren't treating that spray out card with as much respect as you should. It needs to get sprayed out EXACTLY as you spray the car. Same distance, speed, overlap, flash time, EVERYTHING has to be exactly the same.

Brian
I've done paint stick matches and you can't tell they were matched.This is of course with solvent base and with good toners and formulas.

Last edited by tech69; 05-29-2011 at 10:29 AM.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Thats what I was thinking too...but white is a real tough one to get right ,,you really gotta know what your looking at ...whites have so many colors it really gets tough If you dont have mixing machine experiance.
.
Good point Tech, I always check my paint outside for color match and tinting...
One other point,Its not unheard of for your jobber to Not be paying attention and pour a little to much of one tint in (screw up the mix) and make up the weight by adding less of the next....with these looooow end paints no one expects them to match any way so they dont really care when they mix it up...
you'll never get a dead on color match any ways you'll need to learn to blend...its easy..
when they are THAT far off its probably the case
It's very important to pour your toners in one area so you can take a toothpic and dig some out. You're right, especially in small amounts, it has to be weighed perfectly. It's worse for the toners that have the least amount of it in it when you're off cause those are the stronger ones.

Last edited by tech69; 05-29-2011 at 10:38 AM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2011, 01:48 AM
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Thanks for the replies everyone, I really appreciate all of the insight. Sorry for the slow reply back, I have been out of power/internet from bad storms coming though. I hadn't ever heard of metamerism, but that makes perfect sense. I have shot SS on a few cars now that were originally BC/CC with this same brand I used here and it turned out pretty well. Not going to win any shows, but good enough for what it was. I wonder why this particular color showed this (this is the first white that I have done). I did take the gas door for a color match and I assumed they used the color analyzer thing...they took the door into the back room. The color is solid color, not metallic. I also painted the bumpers/trim in SS metallic and that turned out very well being SS metallic.

About 2am the night I posted this I woke up with the thought of what would happen if buffed the original paint (hadn't yet read any replies here). I never thought that it was fading due to it appearing to be a different shade, but I figured it couldn't hurt. I started with my fine cut cleaner (Meguiar's #2) on an 8000 pad. It may be just my wishful thinking, but it seems to be a whole lot better. It is still noticable to me, but the customer was quite happy with it, and in the end that is all that matters I suppose. An all-white car is a lot better than white, green, black, and primer.

This is a very interesting discussion to me, and I can see that I am going to have to rethink how I do some cars. It seems that on these cars where I am painting over 50% of the car already, I need to consider painting the entire thing. For example, tomorrow I am starting on a truck that needs the bed and cab painted, but the doghouse is fine. I priced "paint matched" paint for this vehicle that was double the cost of an off the shelf color, which is about typical for what I am getting. I have got a gallon of paint with reducer/activator for the price of just two quarts. Without having to worry about color match, I feel I am ahead for just a bit more labor.

When I do try to color match, I suppose that can't be guaranteed using SS. That would change my entire pricing structure, since I depend on the cheaper cost of SS vs BC/CC to meet margins. My philosophy on a cheap paint job is that there may be small defects and the paint may not have good durability/longevity, but the colors will match and there is no definite signs of a repair in the short term.

I do want to comment on DBM's first post as IMO it is way off base. I understand the "get what you pay for" philosophy extends to body work as with everything else in life, but you cannot expect everyone to need a "good" paint job, or even what would be considered decent. This kia was literally on its way to the junkyard over a deer hit when I told the owner I could fix it. Bags didn't deploy, although it did puncture the radiator, but the body shop estimates equalled the blue book value. I repainted the front end, both bumpers and all trim, and installed the junkyard parts for just under a grand. It isn't the best job in the world and that was never expected, but no one ever expects the colors not to match. I don't see a single issue with cheap body work when it saves a perfectly good vehicle otherwise. A 1999 kia isn't worth much, but that is no reason to instantly junk it in my book. It is still newer than anything I own. I don't make much money off of these jobs, but there is still a huge demand from those that want a bit more than macco, but can't afford or justify a "real" paint job. I also understand that my opinion above can cause a **** fest on this forum, but that is not what I am after...and yes, I do make a living repairing cars (although I am just getting back into painting). I realize I have a lot more learning to go, especially when it comes to blending and tinting. I have practiced blending on a few panels, but I have got a lot of work to do there and I have never tried tinting my own paint. That sounds like an art to master.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2011, 08:13 AM
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your bumper trim won't show a mismatch cause it's most likely not butted up against old trim color.

It didn't match cause it's white and slight variances show greatly in it cause the dominant color isn't dominant and shows everything else to a great degree. As I said...either too much yellow or blue.Your supplier didn't mix the formula too well and as I said, white will show it. With solid ss you should have a closer match than that w/ metallic not always the case. There's also multiple contributors here...you're also butt matching. So add white, butt match, and a mix that's slightly off you get what you have now.

Last edited by tech69; 05-31-2011 at 08:25 AM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2011, 09:21 AM
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It seems like the one thing I am easily in control over would be to blend the paint into all adjacent panels every single time. Tinting myself is also an option, although most likely out of my skill level at the moment. Until I get a real good hang of blending, this is going to add another layer of complexity I wasn't ready for. I expected paint matched paint to be dead on, and up until this time I haven't had an issue. I know this could happen with any color, but is white especially prone to be slightly off?

In any case, it sounds like my best plan is to grab a couple hoods from a junkyard, a few different shades of a color and start practicing.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2011, 09:40 AM
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white just has a lot of variances and has to be mixed perfectly and that's because white is the color so the toners that have the least amount of weight in them will show if it's off. If it were a different color the dominant color would hide it a little better. Blending is pretty easy but I've never blended a single stage and wouldn't recommend it.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2011, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Never used water born and dont ever plan too...I feel for you guys that HAVE to use it...
Coming soon to every state!

What year is this car? Back in the day when I did some bodywork (20 years or so ago) if a car came in needing a panel repair, I always advised them on the older cars that it most likely wouldn't match perfectly with out a full paint. Cal. has a lot of paint fade from the heat, the KIA also looks to be a bit oxidized. Now, is a painter expected to match to the fade or just do the best he can with what he has to work with?

You fixed what was required of you, bottom line, from what I understand. It will likely happen again, you need a policy for these things or you will lose a lot of money over the years.

Edit: I didn't realize there was one more page to this discussion.
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Last edited by dinger; 05-31-2011 at 11:31 AM. Reason: spellink
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2011, 06:28 AM
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[QUOTE=Brad43

I do want to comment on DBM's first post as IMO it is way off base. I understand the "get what you pay for" philosophy extends to body work as with everything else in life, but you cannot expect everyone to need a "good" paint job, or even what would be considered decent.[/QUOTE]

Being your new to this game I feel its best to warn you that most people that have you do this kind of work are out to get you...You do one fender and the next thing you know,your painting their whole car to make them happy...THEY are the pros (at getting something for nothing)...You need a policy for dealing with them or you'll never make any money....
Your problem is you like this kind of work and want to keep doing it to get better ...People pick up on this and will take advantage of you at every step...What ends up happening every time is You work your butt off ,You never have any money....you end up getting burnt out and find something else to do....These kinds of people just find the next guy in line and use him up...Or worse You'll be the guy up the road that does the real cheap work and Tthats all you'll ever get because you've wasted all your time doing half as'sed work and never had time to learn how to do a quality job....
All we can do is advise you based on what we know the rest is up to you...
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:48 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Being your new to this game I feel its best to warn you that most people that have you do this kind of work are out to get you...You do one fender and the next thing you know,your painting their whole car to make them happy...THEY are the pros (at getting something for nothing)...You need a policy for dealing with them or you'll never make any money....
Your problem is you like this kind of work and want to keep doing it to get better ...People pick up on this and will take advantage of you at every step...What ends up happening every time is You work your butt off ,You never have any money....you end up getting burnt out and find something else to do....These kinds of people just find the next guy in line and use him up...Or worse You'll be the guy up the road that does the real cheap work and Tthats all you'll ever get because you've wasted all your time doing half as'sed work and never had time to learn how to do a quality job....
All we can do is advise you based on what we know the rest is up to you...
Very well said.

Brian
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:59 AM
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the cheapest guy in town is always the busiest . and also broke .
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2011, 12:42 PM
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I am not a painter or body man, but I am a service man. I want to echo what others have said. This is the result of a cheap job and you did the best you could.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2011, 01:52 AM
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Yes, that does make good sense and I am well aware of that from the mechanical side. This is an issue no matter where you are on the quality scale. There are people that will try to get free labor from every small detail, whether or not it is actually an issue. Dealing with this isn't so much about how much work you put into their project, but falls into your business skills and covering your ***. I have a few things in place trying to prevent this from happening...nothing I have ever ran by a lawyer, but I haven't had any arguments yet. My paperwork spells out not just the job I am to do (such as paint a fender), but also to what quality level with samples.

Having thoughts of finish painting that kia to give it a dead match had nothing to do with the customer demanding it and giving in to the demands, but my own personal desires for the quality that I put out. I did not guarantee a perfect paint match (and never have), although that does not mean that I won't try my best to make it so. The paint job on that kia is not top notch, not by a long shot, but I feel is should have matched better than it did. If I had any enough extra paint left, I would have blended it (or attempted to). I have now learned from this to get a bit extra if this happens again, which sounds likely.

I don't do all cheap work, although that is about 60% of my business. The all over scheduled for this weekend will be the best I can do, and it is getting charged appropriately. I am not trying to argue business practices by any means and I know I could have more money in my pocket (at least in the short term) by caring less on the cheap jobs, but I don't morally feel I should operate that way. One may get a lot less man-hours into it, but all jobs will still get the same effort.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2011, 08:39 AM
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you don't have to explain yourself, lots of shops do cheap work now cause that's what pays the bills. I've done it and there's no shame in it.

With experience comes knowing what to expect or to foresee possible hangups and to then verbalize this with the customer so he knows and you have given him the option to pay for it to be done in a way with less risk and to cover your end on liability and full disclosure. This is what makes experiences like this more valuable to you in the long run cause you have gained knowledge from it.
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