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Brad4321 05-27-2011 01:52 PM

Paint Match Gone Wrong
 
2 Attachment(s)
I recently painted the doghouse and passenger front door of a kia sportage as a wreck repair. Like most of my work, this is an "economy fix", which basically translates to a only fix major defects/damage, rough it up and shoot. I know this isn't the philosophy here...and it isn't mine either, but I do the work I am told and paid to do.

I used my typical paint supplier which will remain anonymous and ordered a quart of paint matched SS urethane. In my booth, the paint looked like a dead match, and all of my previous orders have been correct. Today I finished buffing and decided to pull it outside for a look in natural light before applying swirl remover...and obvious as day the paint doesn't match at all. It is bad enough at 25 feet away I was getting comments of not matching from people who don't know a crankshaft from a headlight. Under florescent tubes, it looks dead right. I have heard things about florescent lighting throwing off the look of paint before and to use halogen, but I never gave it much thought.

I have never run into this before. I am not an overly skilled painter, never tried blending and only paint whole panels (or typically, whole cars). I only have a few spoonfuls of paint left, maybe 1/2 cup sprayable. I am out of budget to buy anymore paint, not counting the labor time as this car is due to the customer by next tuesday. Despite being a true economy fix, this error is out of the question...I know I wouldn't accept it. My paint supplier won't do anything about this, stating a "no paint match guarantee". This is in the fine print I didn't read. I suppose it falls under "penny wise, dollar stupid" by choosing my supplier based off dollar signs alone, although we have had a trouble free relationship up until this point.

I have attached two pictures. The camera seems to hide the problem a bit, it is even more obvious in RL. The original paint appears to be what I would call a pure white, while the new paint is a bit like a creamy white...a bit difficult for me to describe colors.

I have lurked this forum for a few months now and have read threads for countless hours...and it is because of the advice here I have got the courage to start painting my own wreck repairs instead of subbing it out. This has been just slightly more profitable for me, but really makes things easier to manage, being in control of the entire operation. I suppose this day would eventually come...in any case, is there any solution short of a repaint? I don't feel that I have enough paint to blend in both sides of the car with no blending experience. I don't know of any other fix besides painting the rest of it (which it honestly needs as it is rusting around the rear hatch, and although it isn't in budget, I am considering it as a distinct possibility to keep my reputation up).

MARTINSR 05-27-2011 02:38 PM

Brad, the condition with lighting you are refering to is called "metamerism". It's where the toners in the paint are seen, sometimes more, sometimes less in the different lights. The two different paints have different toners (even though they may be the "same" color) and in different lights they look different.

Matching a bc/cc color with SS, pretty much impossible. I will tell you right now, that color mixed in a SS isn't top of the line paint and probably a "Value line" and color matches are more often than not, VERY poor. Ok for an overall, but for collision work, forget it.

I am sorry, budget or not, realistically you are going to be blending that color out onto the adjacent panels with BC/CC to correct this. Other than that we are talking about a "butt match", matching and painting the same panels over. This can be done, don't get me wrong but the color matching skill level is going to be pretty high to pull that off. Generally, it isn't even thought of, you prep the adjacent panels for blend and do it, one time, job is done and delivered.

This is the bad part about doing cheap work, you are STILL expected to be better than the cheap price and products should get you.

If you do want to do cheap work, you have to make it REAL clear that it will probably look pretty funky, this is all about communication with the customer more than "body and paint". Every once in a while I have done that cheap work, I make it REAL clear it isn't going to be very good just "better" than the damage they are looking at, but made VERY clear that it won't be "fixed", just "better". The funny thing is when you set it up well like that they are usually thrilled with the outcome, miles from perfect or not.

Brian

OneMoreTime 05-27-2011 02:40 PM

This why the pro painters do a color card..your paint supplier should have some of those..shoot a sample on the color card and roll the vehicle outside and hold the color card up to the car to see if the match is good. if not all you are out is a can of paint..

Everyone in the auto repair business gets bit on occasion with something so you are not the only one this has ever happened to..

Only solution I know is to paint the rest of the car

Sorry for your issue..

Sam

colormecrazy 05-28-2011 11:06 AM

Tell them you can paint it one of three ways:
They can have it cheap, fast, or right....
But not any combination of those!
Trying to mix any two of those three always costs the painter!

boatbob2 05-28-2011 01:53 PM

poor paint match.
 
Hi,i have had a Few cars where the custom matched color didnt match,i found a supplier,that had a computer thing-a-ma-jig that he would put on the original paint,then he would match that paint 99,9 out of 100 almost perfect. call around,you should be able to find someone with that thing,

50bowTie 05-28-2011 06:30 PM

do you have any leftover clear laying around? if so, mix the rest of that wrong color match into it and blend the adjacent panel edges. go get yourself a can of blender and have at it. (I don't usually recommend this but have done it before when in a pinch)

hope that helps

deadbodyman 05-28-2011 09:29 PM

Dont even concider painting the rest of the car.....tell the cheap as's ,this is what you get for that price ,end of story...it needs BC/CC and to be blended...
heres a quick way to fix the problem.if it bothers you that bad..go back and have another quart of that Omini SS mixed up and get the formula and some extra tints to darkin it up.re spray the panels ,You can even blend the door if you need too,Yes you can blend with SS but your blends have to be cleared...then clear that door and get rid of it...dont forget the other side you'll need to blend that too.
You'll never get an acceptable paint match if you dont learn to tint your paint,they may be able to tint it where you got the paint but most of those guys can only read the formula ....you can also ask if there are any variables listed...If your going to be a painter these are things you'll need to know it's all part of it...if the boss wont spring for good paint,it his rep not yours...dont worry about it...if you want to do better work you'll need to find another shop ....other than that getting cheap paint to match and look like good paint takes experiance its just part of the learning process....

tech69 05-29-2011 01:16 AM

if your supplier has a toner bank you should make a habit of bringing a gas cover and start with your standard formula and test it outside. If you can't spray a spray out then match it with your stick. This is technically a metamerism but not really considered one as you're not gonna drive it under the lights you shot it in meaning in most cases you wouldn't have this problem with a toner bank and color corrected lamp, not to mention it's single stage! You'd usually consider it being metamerism when it matches outdoors but looks funky under street lights or anything that's not color corrected to emulate the sun. Best to spray a spray out but without a toner bank you're gonna have to do what you can and developing a relationship with your jobber is crucial cause they'll be willing to spend more time with you getting a match thru different variants but that's not the problem here. THe problem here is you tried to do a butt match with metallic and single stage. The fact it looked good in the light is just a problem with your lights, nothing else.

basically, if that's metallic there's no way you'll get that to match a single stage, as Martin said. The flake depth of single stage is like looking at it on a piece of paper and it will never match, whereas as a two stage has depth to the flakes, appears more 3d, and shinier. FLake depth greatly affects the color of metallic so it's no surprise that the door with the missing handle is your single stage where the flake stands closer to the surface making it lighter in color.

MARTINSR 05-29-2011 08:23 AM

Henry, metamerism is the condition not where it happens. It is what it is, and it doesn't matter if it happens where you will be driving it, where it's parked, or where it is painted. If the appears different under different lights, THAT is metamerism. You are right in that if the car is never going to see the conditions you have it under when you see this like your own shop lights, maybe it won't matter, this is true. The customer is never going to see the car in your lights and once outside it looks good and it looks good where the customer will see it, it may not "matter",but the metamerism still exists.

You and DBM are right, learning how to tint yourself is the next step. It is a steep curve but if you are going to be painting, you MUST know how to move a color around a little. Personally I have not had good luck with the spectrometer "computer thing-a-ma-jig" (more people know it by the thing-a-ma-jig than spectrometer you may be right :) ) I used one when I was a rep and we had one at work with the last paint supplier, it was "close" or MAYBE a "Blendable match" but it certainly didn't "match" the color in my opinion. Of course this could be operator error or simply not as good a thing-a-ma-jig as the guys you use have. I do know I had a Dupont "Chromavision" as I remember they call theirs. :rolleyes: gave a solid color for a metallic at one shop I serviced. :pain:

Learning to tint a color around is the best suggestion if you want to continue doing this stuff.

Brian

MARTINSR 05-29-2011 08:25 AM

Hey Brad, are you going to come back and discuss this? I would like to clear up is this a metallic or not? I thought it looked white but with the discussion I go back and look and now I'm not so sure, it could be a silver?

Brian

tech69 05-29-2011 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Henry, metamerism is the condition not where it happens. It is what it is, and it doesn't matter if it happens where you will be driving it, where it's parked, or where it is painted. If the appears different under different lights, THAT is metamerism. You are right in that if the car is never going to see the conditions you have it under when you see this like your own shop lights, maybe it won't matter, this is true. The customer is never going to see the car in your lights and once outside it looks good and it looks good where the customer will see it, it may not "matter",but the metamerism still exists.

You and DBM are right, learning how to tint yourself is the next step. It is a steep curve but if you are going to be painting, you MUST know how to move a color around a little. Personally I have not had good luck with the spectrometer "computer thing-a-ma-jig" (more people know it by the thing-a-ma-jig than spectrometer you may be right :) ) I used one when I was a rep and we had one at work with the last paint supplier, it was "close" or MAYBE a "Blendable match" but it certainly didn't "match" the color in my opinion. Of course this could be operator error or simply not as good a thing-a-ma-jig as the guys you use have. I do know I had a Dupont "Chromavision" as I remember they call theirs. :rolleyes: gave a solid color for a metallic at one shop I serviced. :pain:

Learning to tint a color around is the best suggestion if you want to continue doing this stuff.

Brian

for the sake of you being right that's correct, but I don't know a lot of painters that would consider that a metamerism but rather being fooled it was a good match under incorrect lights. It's not that technical here. The problem was is that he sprayed a spray out (or however he determined it matched) under bad lighting and when he got it into correct lighting it was a bad match. Probably had more to do with being single stage than anything. Most painters I know would consider a metamerism an effect that causes normal matching paint to look different under street lights or flouros most likely due to blue in the formula. The reason I say this is because a metamerism points to bad formulas, but this has nothing to do with that, this is a poor decision to try to butt match a single stage metallic with a two stage metallic, which has nothing to do with the formula. Metamerism is usually from bad formulas or the user trying to tint and adding too much of something that can't be seen in correct lighting.


btw, I think you were correct, it is a white. The first pic gives it away so a lot of what I'm saying has nothing to do with this situation, but some does.

deadbodyman 05-29-2011 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Hey Brad, are you going to come back and discuss this? I would like to clear up is this a metallic or not? I thought it looked white but with the discussion I go back and look and now I'm not so sure, it could be a silver?

Brian

Thats what I was thinking too...but white is a real tough one to get right ,,you really gotta know what your looking at ...whites have so many colors it really gets tough If you dont have mixing machine experiance.
.
Good point Tech, I always check my paint outside for color match and tinting...
One other point,Its not unheard of for your jobber to Not be paying attention and pour a little to much of one tint in (screw up the mix) and make up the weight by adding less of the next....with these looooow end paints no one expects them to match any way so they dont really care when they mix it up...
you'll never get a dead on color match any ways you'll need to learn to blend...its easy..
when they are THAT far off its probably the case

tech69 05-29-2011 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Thats what I was thinking too...but white is a real tough one to get right ,,you really gotta know what your looking at ...whites have so many colors it really gets tough If you dont have mixing machine experiance..

I agree. A lot of people tell me white is easy but I always say there's a lot of variants cause the color is white so you're gonna see everything else in it. For white you can't do a paint stick color match cause it looks different when it dries. In my opinion, and this has made white a little easier for me is to consider two toners and two directions you can go in...yellow or blue. You don't really see the blue but the blue in small doses make it appear more white. The yellow you do see and makes it look more yellow, and this to me seems to be the difference in varriances for white. It will either look two yellow or too white. So what you do is cancel on out with the other...too yellow add a drop or two of blue...too white add a couple drops of yellow.

MARTINSR 05-29-2011 09:36 AM

There is no color realistically that you can do a "stick match". ALL colors should be sprayed out and cleared (if they are a BC/CC).

Today, with the waterbornes, you had best spray them out and clear them! HOLY CRAP that color is miles different without being fully dried and cleared! No more brush touching that's for sure!

Before I had a mixing machine I had a bunch of pint cans with toner in them to tint. The paint shop is usually thrilled to give them to you because you won't be bothering them as much. :)

I am fascinated at the guys I have worked with who will do a spray out card and it matches, then spray the car and it doesn't and blame the paint. :rolleyes: The fact that it doesn't match now and it did then is the EVIDENCE that you aren't treating that spray out card with as much respect as you should. It needs to get sprayed out EXACTLY as you spray the car. Same distance, speed, overlap, flash time, EVERYTHING has to be exactly the same.

Brian

deadbodyman 05-29-2011 09:42 AM

Never used water born and dont ever plan too...I feel for you guys that HAVE to use it...


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