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Paint Match Gone Wrong

12K views 29 replies 11 participants last post by  tech69 
#1 ·
I recently painted the doghouse and passenger front door of a kia sportage as a wreck repair. Like most of my work, this is an "economy fix", which basically translates to a only fix major defects/damage, rough it up and shoot. I know this isn't the philosophy here...and it isn't mine either, but I do the work I am told and paid to do.

I used my typical paint supplier which will remain anonymous and ordered a quart of paint matched SS urethane. In my booth, the paint looked like a dead match, and all of my previous orders have been correct. Today I finished buffing and decided to pull it outside for a look in natural light before applying swirl remover...and obvious as day the paint doesn't match at all. It is bad enough at 25 feet away I was getting comments of not matching from people who don't know a crankshaft from a headlight. Under florescent tubes, it looks dead right. I have heard things about florescent lighting throwing off the look of paint before and to use halogen, but I never gave it much thought.

I have never run into this before. I am not an overly skilled painter, never tried blending and only paint whole panels (or typically, whole cars). I only have a few spoonfuls of paint left, maybe 1/2 cup sprayable. I am out of budget to buy anymore paint, not counting the labor time as this car is due to the customer by next tuesday. Despite being a true economy fix, this error is out of the question...I know I wouldn't accept it. My paint supplier won't do anything about this, stating a "no paint match guarantee". This is in the fine print I didn't read. I suppose it falls under "penny wise, dollar stupid" by choosing my supplier based off dollar signs alone, although we have had a trouble free relationship up until this point.

I have attached two pictures. The camera seems to hide the problem a bit, it is even more obvious in RL. The original paint appears to be what I would call a pure white, while the new paint is a bit like a creamy white...a bit difficult for me to describe colors.

I have lurked this forum for a few months now and have read threads for countless hours...and it is because of the advice here I have got the courage to start painting my own wreck repairs instead of subbing it out. This has been just slightly more profitable for me, but really makes things easier to manage, being in control of the entire operation. I suppose this day would eventually come...in any case, is there any solution short of a repaint? I don't feel that I have enough paint to blend in both sides of the car with no blending experience. I don't know of any other fix besides painting the rest of it (which it honestly needs as it is rusting around the rear hatch, and although it isn't in budget, I am considering it as a distinct possibility to keep my reputation up).
 

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#2 ·
Brad, the condition with lighting you are refering to is called "metamerism". It's where the toners in the paint are seen, sometimes more, sometimes less in the different lights. The two different paints have different toners (even though they may be the "same" color) and in different lights they look different.

Matching a bc/cc color with SS, pretty much impossible. I will tell you right now, that color mixed in a SS isn't top of the line paint and probably a "Value line" and color matches are more often than not, VERY poor. Ok for an overall, but for collision work, forget it.

I am sorry, budget or not, realistically you are going to be blending that color out onto the adjacent panels with BC/CC to correct this. Other than that we are talking about a "butt match", matching and painting the same panels over. This can be done, don't get me wrong but the color matching skill level is going to be pretty high to pull that off. Generally, it isn't even thought of, you prep the adjacent panels for blend and do it, one time, job is done and delivered.

This is the bad part about doing cheap work, you are STILL expected to be better than the cheap price and products should get you.

If you do want to do cheap work, you have to make it REAL clear that it will probably look pretty funky, this is all about communication with the customer more than "body and paint". Every once in a while I have done that cheap work, I make it REAL clear it isn't going to be very good just "better" than the damage they are looking at, but made VERY clear that it won't be "fixed", just "better". The funny thing is when you set it up well like that they are usually thrilled with the outcome, miles from perfect or not.

Brian
 
#3 ·
This why the pro painters do a color card..your paint supplier should have some of those..shoot a sample on the color card and roll the vehicle outside and hold the color card up to the car to see if the match is good. if not all you are out is a can of paint..

Everyone in the auto repair business gets bit on occasion with something so you are not the only one this has ever happened to..

Only solution I know is to paint the rest of the car

Sorry for your issue..

Sam
 
#5 ·
poor paint match.

Hi,i have had a Few cars where the custom matched color didnt match,i found a supplier,that had a computer thing-a-ma-jig that he would put on the original paint,then he would match that paint 99,9 out of 100 almost perfect. call around,you should be able to find someone with that thing,
 
#6 ·
do you have any leftover clear laying around? if so, mix the rest of that wrong color match into it and blend the adjacent panel edges. go get yourself a can of blender and have at it. (I don't usually recommend this but have done it before when in a pinch)

hope that helps
 
#7 ·
Dont even concider painting the rest of the car.....tell the cheap as's ,this is what you get for that price ,end of story...it needs BC/CC and to be blended...
heres a quick way to fix the problem.if it bothers you that bad..go back and have another quart of that Omini SS mixed up and get the formula and some extra tints to darkin it up.re spray the panels ,You can even blend the door if you need too,Yes you can blend with SS but your blends have to be cleared...then clear that door and get rid of it...dont forget the other side you'll need to blend that too.
You'll never get an acceptable paint match if you dont learn to tint your paint,they may be able to tint it where you got the paint but most of those guys can only read the formula ....you can also ask if there are any variables listed...If your going to be a painter these are things you'll need to know it's all part of it...if the boss wont spring for good paint,it his rep not yours...dont worry about it...if you want to do better work you'll need to find another shop ....other than that getting cheap paint to match and look like good paint takes experiance its just part of the learning process....
 
#8 · (Edited)
if your supplier has a toner bank you should make a habit of bringing a gas cover and start with your standard formula and test it outside. If you can't spray a spray out then match it with your stick. This is technically a metamerism but not really considered one as you're not gonna drive it under the lights you shot it in meaning in most cases you wouldn't have this problem with a toner bank and color corrected lamp, not to mention it's single stage! You'd usually consider it being metamerism when it matches outdoors but looks funky under street lights or anything that's not color corrected to emulate the sun. Best to spray a spray out but without a toner bank you're gonna have to do what you can and developing a relationship with your jobber is crucial cause they'll be willing to spend more time with you getting a match thru different variants but that's not the problem here. THe problem here is you tried to do a butt match with metallic and single stage. The fact it looked good in the light is just a problem with your lights, nothing else.

basically, if that's metallic there's no way you'll get that to match a single stage, as Martin said. The flake depth of single stage is like looking at it on a piece of paper and it will never match, whereas as a two stage has depth to the flakes, appears more 3d, and shinier. FLake depth greatly affects the color of metallic so it's no surprise that the door with the missing handle is your single stage where the flake stands closer to the surface making it lighter in color.
 
#9 ·
Henry, metamerism is the condition not where it happens. It is what it is, and it doesn't matter if it happens where you will be driving it, where it's parked, or where it is painted. If the appears different under different lights, THAT is metamerism. You are right in that if the car is never going to see the conditions you have it under when you see this like your own shop lights, maybe it won't matter, this is true. The customer is never going to see the car in your lights and once outside it looks good and it looks good where the customer will see it, it may not "matter",but the metamerism still exists.

You and DBM are right, learning how to tint yourself is the next step. It is a steep curve but if you are going to be painting, you MUST know how to move a color around a little. Personally I have not had good luck with the spectrometer "computer thing-a-ma-jig" (more people know it by the thing-a-ma-jig than spectrometer you may be right :) ) I used one when I was a rep and we had one at work with the last paint supplier, it was "close" or MAYBE a "Blendable match" but it certainly didn't "match" the color in my opinion. Of course this could be operator error or simply not as good a thing-a-ma-jig as the guys you use have. I do know I had a Dupont "Chromavision" as I remember they call theirs. :rolleyes: gave a solid color for a metallic at one shop I serviced. :pain:

Learning to tint a color around is the best suggestion if you want to continue doing this stuff.

Brian
 
#10 ·
Hey Brad, are you going to come back and discuss this? I would like to clear up is this a metallic or not? I thought it looked white but with the discussion I go back and look and now I'm not so sure, it could be a silver?

Brian
 
#11 · (Edited)
MARTINSR said:
Henry, metamerism is the condition not where it happens. It is what it is, and it doesn't matter if it happens where you will be driving it, where it's parked, or where it is painted. If the appears different under different lights, THAT is metamerism. You are right in that if the car is never going to see the conditions you have it under when you see this like your own shop lights, maybe it won't matter, this is true. The customer is never going to see the car in your lights and once outside it looks good and it looks good where the customer will see it, it may not "matter",but the metamerism still exists.

You and DBM are right, learning how to tint yourself is the next step. It is a steep curve but if you are going to be painting, you MUST know how to move a color around a little. Personally I have not had good luck with the spectrometer "computer thing-a-ma-jig" (more people know it by the thing-a-ma-jig than spectrometer you may be right :) ) I used one when I was a rep and we had one at work with the last paint supplier, it was "close" or MAYBE a "Blendable match" but it certainly didn't "match" the color in my opinion. Of course this could be operator error or simply not as good a thing-a-ma-jig as the guys you use have. I do know I had a Dupont "Chromavision" as I remember they call theirs. :rolleyes: gave a solid color for a metallic at one shop I serviced. :pain:

Learning to tint a color around is the best suggestion if you want to continue doing this stuff.

Brian
for the sake of you being right that's correct, but I don't know a lot of painters that would consider that a metamerism but rather being fooled it was a good match under incorrect lights. It's not that technical here. The problem was is that he sprayed a spray out (or however he determined it matched) under bad lighting and when he got it into correct lighting it was a bad match. Probably had more to do with being single stage than anything. Most painters I know would consider a metamerism an effect that causes normal matching paint to look different under street lights or flouros most likely due to blue in the formula. The reason I say this is because a metamerism points to bad formulas, but this has nothing to do with that, this is a poor decision to try to butt match a single stage metallic with a two stage metallic, which has nothing to do with the formula. Metamerism is usually from bad formulas or the user trying to tint and adding too much of something that can't be seen in correct lighting.


btw, I think you were correct, it is a white. The first pic gives it away so a lot of what I'm saying has nothing to do with this situation, but some does.
 
#12 · (Edited)
MARTINSR said:
Hey Brad, are you going to come back and discuss this? I would like to clear up is this a metallic or not? I thought it looked white but with the discussion I go back and look and now I'm not so sure, it could be a silver?

Brian
Thats what I was thinking too...but white is a real tough one to get right ,,you really gotta know what your looking at ...whites have so many colors it really gets tough If you dont have mixing machine experiance.
.
Good point Tech, I always check my paint outside for color match and tinting...
One other point,Its not unheard of for your jobber to Not be paying attention and pour a little to much of one tint in (screw up the mix) and make up the weight by adding less of the next....with these looooow end paints no one expects them to match any way so they dont really care when they mix it up...
you'll never get a dead on color match any ways you'll need to learn to blend...its easy..
when they are THAT far off its probably the case
 
#13 ·
deadbodyman said:
Thats what I was thinking too...but white is a real tough one to get right ,,you really gotta know what your looking at ...whites have so many colors it really gets tough If you dont have mixing machine experiance..
I agree. A lot of people tell me white is easy but I always say there's a lot of variants cause the color is white so you're gonna see everything else in it. For white you can't do a paint stick color match cause it looks different when it dries. In my opinion, and this has made white a little easier for me is to consider two toners and two directions you can go in...yellow or blue. You don't really see the blue but the blue in small doses make it appear more white. The yellow you do see and makes it look more yellow, and this to me seems to be the difference in varriances for white. It will either look two yellow or too white. So what you do is cancel on out with the other...too yellow add a drop or two of blue...too white add a couple drops of yellow.
 
#14 ·
There is no color realistically that you can do a "stick match". ALL colors should be sprayed out and cleared (if they are a BC/CC).

Today, with the waterbornes, you had best spray them out and clear them! HOLY CRAP that color is miles different without being fully dried and cleared! No more brush touching that's for sure!

Before I had a mixing machine I had a bunch of pint cans with toner in them to tint. The paint shop is usually thrilled to give them to you because you won't be bothering them as much. :)

I am fascinated at the guys I have worked with who will do a spray out card and it matches, then spray the car and it doesn't and blame the paint. :rolleyes: The fact that it doesn't match now and it did then is the EVIDENCE that you aren't treating that spray out card with as much respect as you should. It needs to get sprayed out EXACTLY as you spray the car. Same distance, speed, overlap, flash time, EVERYTHING has to be exactly the same.

Brian
 
#18 · (Edited)
MARTINSR said:
There is no color realistically that you can do a "stick match". ALL colors should be sprayed out and cleared (if they are a BC/CC).

Today, with the waterbornes, you had best spray them out and clear them! HOLY CRAP that color is miles different without being fully dried and cleared! No more brush touching that's for sure!

Before I had a mixing machine I had a bunch of pint cans with toner in them to tint. The paint shop is usually thrilled to give them to you because you won't be bothering them as much. :)

I am fascinated at the guys I have worked with who will do a spray out card and it matches, then spray the car and it doesn't and blame the paint. :rolleyes: The fact that it doesn't match now and it did then is the EVIDENCE that you aren't treating that spray out card with as much respect as you should. It needs to get sprayed out EXACTLY as you spray the car. Same distance, speed, overlap, flash time, EVERYTHING has to be exactly the same.

Brian
I've done paint stick matches and you can't tell they were matched.This is of course with solvent base and with good toners and formulas.
 
#19 · (Edited)
deadbodyman said:
Thats what I was thinking too...but white is a real tough one to get right ,,you really gotta know what your looking at ...whites have so many colors it really gets tough If you dont have mixing machine experiance.
.
Good point Tech, I always check my paint outside for color match and tinting...
One other point,Its not unheard of for your jobber to Not be paying attention and pour a little to much of one tint in (screw up the mix) and make up the weight by adding less of the next....with these looooow end paints no one expects them to match any way so they dont really care when they mix it up...
you'll never get a dead on color match any ways you'll need to learn to blend...its easy..
when they are THAT far off its probably the case
It's very important to pour your toners in one area so you can take a toothpic and dig some out. You're right, especially in small amounts, it has to be weighed perfectly. It's worse for the toners that have the least amount of it in it when you're off cause those are the stronger ones.
 
#20 ·
Thanks for the replies everyone, I really appreciate all of the insight. Sorry for the slow reply back, I have been out of power/internet from bad storms coming though. I hadn't ever heard of metamerism, but that makes perfect sense. I have shot SS on a few cars now that were originally BC/CC with this same brand I used here and it turned out pretty well. Not going to win any shows, but good enough for what it was. I wonder why this particular color showed this (this is the first white that I have done). I did take the gas door for a color match and I assumed they used the color analyzer thing...they took the door into the back room. The color is solid color, not metallic. I also painted the bumpers/trim in SS metallic and that turned out very well being SS metallic.

About 2am the night I posted this I woke up with the thought of what would happen if buffed the original paint (hadn't yet read any replies here). I never thought that it was fading due to it appearing to be a different shade, but I figured it couldn't hurt. I started with my fine cut cleaner (Meguiar's #2) on an 8000 pad. It may be just my wishful thinking, but it seems to be a whole lot better. It is still noticable to me, but the customer was quite happy with it, and in the end that is all that matters I suppose. An all-white car is a lot better than white, green, black, and primer.

This is a very interesting discussion to me, and I can see that I am going to have to rethink how I do some cars. It seems that on these cars where I am painting over 50% of the car already, I need to consider painting the entire thing. For example, tomorrow I am starting on a truck that needs the bed and cab painted, but the doghouse is fine. I priced "paint matched" paint for this vehicle that was double the cost of an off the shelf color, which is about typical for what I am getting. I have got a gallon of paint with reducer/activator for the price of just two quarts. Without having to worry about color match, I feel I am ahead for just a bit more labor.

When I do try to color match, I suppose that can't be guaranteed using SS. That would change my entire pricing structure, since I depend on the cheaper cost of SS vs BC/CC to meet margins. My philosophy on a cheap paint job is that there may be small defects and the paint may not have good durability/longevity, but the colors will match and there is no definite signs of a repair in the short term.

I do want to comment on DBM's first post as IMO it is way off base. I understand the "get what you pay for" philosophy extends to body work as with everything else in life, but you cannot expect everyone to need a "good" paint job, or even what would be considered decent. This kia was literally on its way to the junkyard over a deer hit when I told the owner I could fix it. Bags didn't deploy, although it did puncture the radiator, but the body shop estimates equalled the blue book value. I repainted the front end, both bumpers and all trim, and installed the junkyard parts for just under a grand. It isn't the best job in the world and that was never expected, but no one ever expects the colors not to match. I don't see a single issue with cheap body work when it saves a perfectly good vehicle otherwise. A 1999 kia isn't worth much, but that is no reason to instantly junk it in my book. It is still newer than anything I own. I don't make much money off of these jobs, but there is still a huge demand from those that want a bit more than macco, but can't afford or justify a "real" paint job. I also understand that my opinion above can cause a **** fest on this forum, but that is not what I am after...and yes, I do make a living repairing cars (although I am just getting back into painting). I realize I have a lot more learning to go, especially when it comes to blending and tinting. I have practiced blending on a few panels, but I have got a lot of work to do there and I have never tried tinting my own paint. That sounds like an art to master.
 
#21 · (Edited)
your bumper trim won't show a mismatch cause it's most likely not butted up against old trim color.

It didn't match cause it's white and slight variances show greatly in it cause the dominant color isn't dominant and shows everything else to a great degree. As I said...either too much yellow or blue.Your supplier didn't mix the formula too well and as I said, white will show it. With solid ss you should have a closer match than that w/ metallic not always the case. There's also multiple contributors here...you're also butt matching. So add white, butt match, and a mix that's slightly off you get what you have now.
 
#22 ·
It seems like the one thing I am easily in control over would be to blend the paint into all adjacent panels every single time. Tinting myself is also an option, although most likely out of my skill level at the moment. Until I get a real good hang of blending, this is going to add another layer of complexity I wasn't ready for. I expected paint matched paint to be dead on, and up until this time I haven't had an issue. I know this could happen with any color, but is white especially prone to be slightly off?

In any case, it sounds like my best plan is to grab a couple hoods from a junkyard, a few different shades of a color and start practicing.
 
#23 ·
white just has a lot of variances and has to be mixed perfectly and that's because white is the color so the toners that have the least amount of weight in them will show if it's off. If it were a different color the dominant color would hide it a little better. Blending is pretty easy but I've never blended a single stage and wouldn't recommend it.
 
#24 · (Edited)
deadbodyman said:
Never used water born and dont ever plan too...I feel for you guys that HAVE to use it...
Coming soon to every state! :evil:

What year is this car? Back in the day when I did some bodywork (20 years or so ago) if a car came in needing a panel repair, I always advised them on the older cars that it most likely wouldn't match perfectly with out a full paint. Cal. has a lot of paint fade from the heat, the KIA also looks to be a bit oxidized. Now, is a painter expected to match to the fade or just do the best he can with what he has to work with?

You fixed what was required of you, bottom line, from what I understand. It will likely happen again, you need a policy for these things or you will lose a lot of money over the years.

Edit: I didn't realize there was one more page to this discussion.
 
#25 ·
Brad43 I do want to comment on DBM's first post as IMO it is way off base. I understand the "get what you pay for" philosophy extends to body work as with everything else in life said:
Being your new to this game I feel its best to warn you that most people that have you do this kind of work are out to get you...You do one fender and the next thing you know,your painting their whole car to make them happy...THEY are the pros (at getting something for nothing)...You need a policy for dealing with them or you'll never make any money....
Your problem is you like this kind of work and want to keep doing it to get better ...People pick up on this and will take advantage of you at every step...What ends up happening every time is You work your butt off ,You never have any money....you end up getting burnt out and find something else to do....These kinds of people just find the next guy in line and use him up...Or worse You'll be the guy up the road that does the real cheap work and Tthats all you'll ever get because you've wasted all your time doing half as'sed work and never had time to learn how to do a quality job....
All we can do is advise you based on what we know the rest is up to you...
 
#26 ·
deadbodyman said:
Being your new to this game I feel its best to warn you that most people that have you do this kind of work are out to get you...You do one fender and the next thing you know,your painting their whole car to make them happy...THEY are the pros (at getting something for nothing)...You need a policy for dealing with them or you'll never make any money....
Your problem is you like this kind of work and want to keep doing it to get better ...People pick up on this and will take advantage of you at every step...What ends up happening every time is You work your butt off ,You never have any money....you end up getting burnt out and find something else to do....These kinds of people just find the next guy in line and use him up...Or worse You'll be the guy up the road that does the real cheap work and Tthats all you'll ever get because you've wasted all your time doing half as'sed work and never had time to learn how to do a quality job....
All we can do is advise you based on what we know the rest is up to you...
Very well said. :thumbup:

Brian
 
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